[eliex]

Why is the GTVA fleet and (allies) so stretched compared to the 2nd Incursion Fleets (minus the 80 juggernauts)?
 It took quite a long time to build such a Colossus not to mention other destroyers.

 The GTVA have over 10 star systems under their control.
 It can't possibly be the reason that there is not enough people or resources to make an equivalent of the Sathanas Fleet right?

Star Systems are flipping MASSIVE!
          If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people: take 20 billion people as conscripts just in one system!
Fine, minus 5 billion for defence of planets, kill pirates etc.                                    Still 15 billion!

 Unless there is not enough people to fully populate 10 star systems without cloning about 100 of each person on this planet if Freespace *might* be real.

  Any comments?
p.s (I think that is as clear as I can make it)

 

[IceyJones]

who the heck says, that every ex-colony is as huge as earth was.....hey.....these were COLONIES! nothing more....
and IIRC even one of the biggest colonies capella even had only 250 mio peoples......

[MT]

Why is the GTVA fleet and (allies) so stretched compared to the 2nd Incursion Fleets (minus the 80 juggernauts)?
 It took quite a long time to build such a Colossus not to mention other destroyers.

 The GTVA have over 10 star systems under their control.
 It can't possibly be the reason that there is not enough people or resources to make an equivalent of the Sathanas Fleet right?

Star Systems are flipping MASSIVE!
          If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people: take 20 billion people as conscripts just in one system!
Fine, minus 5 billion for defence of planets, kill pirates etc.                                    Still 15 billion!

 Unless there is not enough people to fully populate 10 star systems without cloning about 100 of each person on this planet if Freespace *might* be real.

  Any comments?
p.s (I think that is as clear as I can make it)

 

10 life supporting planets in each system? There are less than 10 planets and only ONE is capable of supporting life in this solar system, and that's by being at a suitable distance from the Sun AND being very lucky. If there are so many life supporting systems out, we would bee under alien domination 5000 years ago or never even had the chance to develop to this stage by getting wiped and someone moved in.

Assuming 60 billion people, conscript 20 billion, 33.33% of the living population. GTVA is some brutal military dictatorship on permanent war footing with EVERY able bodied males AND females have to serve full time between the ages of 18 and 40, while others are on reserve list until they die?

[Jeff Vader]

If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people

Alrighty. What proof do you have on your 'ten inhabitable planets per system' theory? Like MT said, we have one inhabitable planet in this system. There is one other planet that might support life if a fully isolated complex was built onto its surface. The rest are ****. Or have you thought about moving to Jupiter? Or Venus?

And the amount of population... they'd have to multiply like rabbits in order to fill up the 6 billion people quota you seem to be using in this theory. And it's not likely that every time a new planet is found, the existing human population is divided evenly so that the same amount of people is present at every planet.

And let's not forget about canon information. Capella had 250 million refugees. Meaning that there were probably the same or slightly larger amount of people there before the second war. That's pretty much what Indonesia has nowadays. That's right. They didn't fill up the system with people. It was a colony.

[AlphaOne]

whyle Capella was  a Heavely populated colony what about Regulus and Polaris or Deneb . If im not mistaken these were canon colonies even in FS1 . Now im not the one to say that the GTVA had sistems as heavely populated as Sol was but he does have a point there. I mean we keep hearing about horrific losses to the GTVA milatary .

Agreed they suffered some losses but even so those losses are so small its not even worth mentioning as horrific losses when the ballance of 2 species survival is at stake.


Im asuming the entire GTVA yeah you heard me vasudans and terrans alike number about 10 billion total .

Hell lets just say they number 6 billion about the number Earth has today how come a few hundred thousand dead are such a huge blow?? Hell more soldiers were killed in WW2 .

Considering all this plus the tech. advancement the GTVA should be able to replenish its ranks of pilots and crewmen in what 2 or 3 months top? And that is assuming they had incredibly limited reserve troops. Like enough to crew maybe 10 percent of the original fleet. And that is just stooooopid.

Oh and dont give me the whole experienced crews thing cuz i say thats bulls*** . Most of the crews and pilots of the GTVA had no action previsous to the NTF war and the shivan war.

And most of them were killed there .

Oh yeah and when the survival of a race is aat stake like it is for the GTVA dictatorship or whatever you bet your sorry ass civil right and freedoms go out the window . First we survive then you can ***** all you want about human freedoms and stuff. It is only logical.(And before anyone gets angry here americans loose more and more civil rights and freedoms every day and theyr survival as a people is not in question yet.)

[karajorma]

In 2335, the destruction of the Lucifer superdestroyer collapsed the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis, severing all contact with Earth.

The fate of the Terran home planet remains open to speculation, though a number of scenarios are possible. As the center of an interstellar community, Earth could not survive in isolation without a radical transformation of its political and economic structures. On this point, there is no disagreement. However, the question remains whether this transition occurred peacefully or whether Terran society collapsed into anarchy. Strong arguments have been advanced for both sides.

For generations, Earth had been the political, economic, and cultural center of Terran civilization. Humans still measured time in hours, days, months, and years. They named their ships after the mythological figures of ancient Terran civilizations, and systems were still identified according to the constellations observed from Earth. The planet served as capital of the GTA, and the bulk of the Terran industrial base was located in the Sol system. Offworlders identified their nationality according to the old Earth boundaries, though nation-states dissolved after the discovery of subspace and the emergence of an interstellar Terran society.

Seems pretty obvious why the GTVA was struggling. Nuke all the first world countries overnight and see what happened to the economies of all the other nations over the next 32 years.

[TrashMan]

What does GTVA's struggle have to do with population numbers?

Oh, and if I'm not mistaken elix didn't claim there are 10 habbitable planets PER system, he used a "IF Sol had 10 habitable planets" as comparison to try and calculate the number of people in the GTVA (since it's assumed it does have at lest 10 habitable planets)

[Jeff Vader]

What does GTVA's struggle have to do with population numbers?

Oh, and if I'm not mistaken elix didn't claim there are 10 habbitable planets PER system, he used a "IF Sol had 10 habitable planets" as comparison to try and calculate the number of people in the GTVA (since it's assumed it does have at lest 10 habitable planets)

If the GTVA struggles, there's probably little time for excessive breeding.

And he did claim that there are 10 habitable planets per system:

If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people

That is highly exaggerated. Even one inhabitable planet per system is exaggerated. We could, of course, assume that the GTVA is so almighty that they can inhabit every piece of rock that they come across. But there's still little to be done with gas giants. Or... did either of you have any plans?

Edit: Just noticed... pieces of rock are one thing but eliex specifically said "Earth-like". That's even more unlikely.

[Snail]

Capella, a "densely populated starsystem" has only 250 million people.

[AlphaOne]

Agreed howeevr what is the difference between a desly populated colony and a planet that is either vasudan or terran . I mean what about Regulus and Polaris? They were colonies that to my understanding were fairly populated even during FS1 era . If that is the case how populated are they?

[Snail]

I say there are 50 billion people tops in the whole of the GTVA.

[AlphaOne]

Also ppl seem to believe that the GTVA is always on short supply when regarding fleet deployments. I say that is wrong I mean the GTVA fleets were gooing through a massive refitting and reequiping process with new ships new fighters new weapons etc. So at that particular point in time we can agree that they must of had theyr amrde forces at an all time low so to speak. Since well at least part of the GTVA pilots and crews could not have had a ship or were waiting for a ship to be completed.


Also let us not forget that most of the GTA fleet was based in SOL and most GTA fleets along with posibly the remaining at least 1 vasudan fleet would been stationed in SOL in a last attempt to hold the line agains the lucifer. Even so we see quite a few Orion class destroyers out there.

This leads me to believe that the GTA fleet was much more massive then anyone expected. With shiops posted around in numerous sistems  key junctions anc omd/trade hub's .

I mean it is a safe bet that each GTVA fleet had at LEAST 1 destroyer perhaps 2 . And we can safely asume there can be at least 12 to 14 fleets per race that bring us to a grand total of 24 to 28 fleets.

That is not such a high number nor is it low. But remember the full wartime mahine of the GTVA was not fully engaged untill after the shivan threat appeared. And by that time well lets just say they had a lot of building and repairing to do.

[Gamma_Draconis]

whyle Capella was  a Heavely populated colony what about Regulus and Polaris or Deneb . If im not mistaken these were canon colonies even in FS1 . Now im not the one to say that the GTVA had sistems as heavely populated as Sol was but he does have a point there. I mean we keep hearing about horrific losses to the GTVA milatary .

Agreed they suffered some losses but even so those losses are so small its not even worth mentioning as horrific losses when the ballance of 2 species survival is at stake.


Im asuming the entire GTVA yeah you heard me vasudans and terrans alike number about 10 billion total .

Hell lets just say they number 6 billion about the number Earth has today how come a few hundred thousand dead are such a huge blow?? Hell more soldiers were killed in WW2 .

Considering all this plus the tech. advancement the GTVA should be able to replenish its ranks of pilots and crewmen in what 2 or 3 months top? And that is assuming they had incredibly limited reserve troops. Like enough to crew maybe 10 percent of the original fleet. And that is just stooooopid.

Replenishing GTVA military personnel would take at least 6 months. Even then, those would be rushed out and lack the real training and experience of a full crew. I'm quite sure a number of the GTVA Admirals and Captains are veterans of the Great War. Bosch was a veteran and this is on pure speculation, but I think Petrarch was one as well. The NTF Rebellion also weaken the GTVA. While it was helpful that it produced skilled pilots and crewmen, it also meant the lost of several colonies whose industrial capabilities were probably brought to a halt during the conflict.

Skilled personnels are very valuable. Losing them would be the last thing you want in times of war.

I am fully aware that the GTVA did not fall to the level of despair during the Great War. They still had a healthy supply of able citizens who could be enlisted. During the Great War, the GTA/PVN were probably burning off almost an entire generation.

The GTVA is probably less powerful than the GTA/PVN during the Great War. Remember that the GTA and PVN fought for over a decade and still managed to fend off the Shivans. With at least 80% of the GTVA industrial capacity and infrastructure was wiped out, it's a safe bet that they wouldn't be back to their former self any time soon.  Remember, this isn't WW2. There is no US to give out loans to war torn nations. They're starting over from scratch with no aid what so ever.

[AlphaOne]

Agreed but if they could find the way to explore and colonize new sistems build new shypyards and new ships nd new weapons then they must not have been is such a bad shape after all. Granted even so the GTVA is but a shadow of the former GTA/PVN might we must not underestimate the resourcefullness of the GTVA. Also why do you asume it would take 6 months to replenish the crews?? I mean no decent army goes to war without having a reserve milatary force that has at least capable leaders if not equaly capable soldiers.


My guess is that the GTVA did indee loose an important number of front line pilots but then again im also sure they have reserve troopsto be deployed. Sure it will take them a while and they might not be as good/experienced as the first one initialy but they will learn. I mean the initial ones werent that good to begin with untill they got around to actualy fling under combat conditions and surviving for a mission or 2 .

And i say forced "comunity" labor and conscriting the way GTVA should move for the next few months or evn 1 or 2 years at max. Those that scream out for their civil rights...welll round them up and shoot them in public squares and send the bill to the families for the bullets and work time.

I mean theyr civilization they very existence as a species is at stake and they wine because they have to actualy work more for the food and shelter they get while young men and women die to keep them safe???  A hell no shoot them and get it done with. They can protest all they want when the threat of extinction has passed until then they should just keep theyr mouth shut and keep working .


I always said a bit of slave labour does wonders for the economy. (GTVA economy i mean sheesh what do yoyu think i am some sort of...freak?? ) .

[Kosh]

I mean it is a safe bet that each GTVA fleet had at LEAST 1 destroyer perhaps 2 .

Then again the NTF rebellion only had the resources of 3 fleets but had at least ten Orions.

Seems pretty obvious why the GTVA was struggling. Nuke all the first world countries overnight and see what happened to the economies of all the other nations over the next 32 years.

The Terran sector was struggling, but the Zods were doing pretty well for themselves. I assume most of their industrial capacity wasn't in their home system, but also they didn't have the political chaos the terrans had.

[karajorma]

Given how inhospitable Vasuda Prime is I wouldn't be surprised if the Vasudans weren't mainly based there.

[BengalTiger]

The GTVA is probably less powerful than the GTA/PVN during the Great War. Remember that the GTA and PVN fought for over a decade and still managed to fend off the Shivans. With at least 80% of the GTVA industrial capacity and infrastructure was wiped out, it's a safe bet that they wouldn't be back to their former self any time soon.  Remember, this isn't WW2. There is no US to give out loans to war torn nations. They're starting over from scratch with no aid what so ever.

Well I'd say that there is a US... and a Russia, China, EU and Japan too.
All in the Sol System, based on Earth, the Moon, Mars, many asteroids, moons of other planets and many space stations, all colonized probably more than 100 years before subspace was discovered.

So there are superpowers, probably united (thanks to the Shivan threat), but they're off limits for the GTVA.

And since this is a topic about fleets:
IMHO the Sol fleet could be the most powerfull. The FS 1 Endgame cutscene shows that the whole front of the Lucy, although damaged, is near the Moon, waiting to be boarded and salvaged. Another thing is that after seeing the warp.pof cut the Lucy in half, scientists on Earth would spend as much or more time constructing a missile that will generate a warp.pof upon impact (to slice through the ship's outer layers like a BFRed) than reverse engineering the Lucifer's wreck.

The fleet at Sol could also use whole planetoids as resources for supership hulls (heck, they could make ultra slow but ultra armored asteroid bases with engines, armed with Shivan Flux Cannons, and warp.pof generating bomb launchers), more advanced fighters than most GTVA constructions, but probably less carrier style ships due to the abundance of space stations.

[Mars]

If the GTVA tapped into half it's resources it could easily have a large fleet in a short amount of time... but you have to figure they're probably understaffed as it is.

[Kie99]

We don't have enough information to say that.  We don't know the population size of the GTVA, how long it takes to build a ship (apart from the Colossus), how scarce the metals needed to build ships are, how expensive it is to get hold of them etc.

[eliex]

We don't have enough information to say that.  We don't know the population size of the GTVA, how long it takes to build a ship (apart from the Colossus), how scarce the metals needed to build ships are, how expensive it is to get hold of them etc.

 Actually that's not quite true - look at the Solar system.
If we managed to catch 100 asteroids we'd have several hundred tons of metal, iron primarily just like that. And look how many asteroids there are in Sol, not to mention the other star systems terrestrial planets and moons.   
  Even gas planets can provide some things . . .


 Appears that my basis for my claim was a little far to off.
OK, could people terraform "uninhabitable" planets? Don't know how it really works though . . .
 How about moons and planets that seriously require help to survive from one main planet.
They could create heat generators . . . 
       Hey, we are talking about centuries of technology into the future. Speaking about lack of manpower, well, there's always cloning.
 Maybe someone should hire the Kaminoans to clone some slaves for us . . .