Author Topic: Halo Nonsense  (Read 41672 times)

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Offline Roanoke

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I'd much rather player the original AvP to the sequel. Or, I would if it worked with my new-ish GPU  :doubt:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Really? How was AvP 1 better? I'm genuinely curious, not skeptical.

 

Offline Raven2001

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and everyone buys them because they're the "big titles" then games in general may end up declining in quality as developers get lasy and only the giants of publishing remain.... similar to the music industry I suppose!

Thats my main issue in fact. I wont say that I didnt enjoy Halo... I did, both 1 and 2 on coop. But that's it. Halo was a mediocre game, which gained with good PR, not necessarily good design. The story and setting was decent, but not good. The gameplay had its moments but that's it.
But as far as I'm concerned, Halo is just a simbol of how gaming industry is nowadays: do a massive hype, give shiny graphics and u make money. That means no one even cares to invest on taking the industry forward, which results in every year you getting a bazillion unoriginal, "more of the same" titles.

Deus Ex was an excellent game, so was System Shock, and the same goes for Bioshock (which isnt original and is, again, watered down for the masses, but still with an excellent story and setting to be an excellent game. And original in the way that you didn't see anything of the likes of it for some years already)... Those while still being labelled as FPS's tried to bring games forward in many ways. And thats just in the FPS side of things of course.
Alsothey had great settings and stories that could almost go rival the likes of the veteran sci-fi writhers. Unlike the idiotic plots you see nowadays in games that makes everyone and their mother go "omg so deep!!"

What did Halo do amazingly? Nothing... absolutely nothing. And thats my gripe with it. It got heavilly selled not because it was an excellent game, but because it was publicized to death which made the mindless masses buy it, lacking any known alternative (not that there is any nowadays really).

And its over hyped games like Halo that are making games go downhill more and more. Ultimately its the costumers who are to blame, because they buy the same crap after crap every year, making devs happy. From my part I cant remember the last time I bought a game. Nowadays I get them at the... erm... "specialty stores", play them, and if I find them really something (which I havent in quite some time) I'll buy them.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Ironically, Marcus, I played every one of those titles you cited (with the exception of the Wheel of Time game, never heard of that), and yet I preferred Halo to all of them.

I really think it's a matter of taste. Even for Yahtzee.

1) That's not ironic.

2) You're the first person I've seen say that. Ever.

3) There are outliers in every group.

 

Offline Snail

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It's a matter of opinion, I think that's all that is really needed to end this argument, though continuing it is always fun.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Ironically, Marcus, I played every one of those titles you cited (with the exception of the Wheel of Time game, never heard of that), and yet I preferred Halo to all of them.

I really think it's a matter of taste. Even for Yahtzee.

1) That's not ironic.

2) You're the first person I've seen say that. Ever.

3) There are outliers in every group.

Snail's right, though, it really is a matter of opinion. I don't think I'm an outlier. *shrug* I know I'm a very intelligent, well-read, and creative person, and I don't think that the fact that I love Halo somehow deprecates that.

I'm not part of a mindless herd, as was suggested above. I think it's a great game. I have all sorts of brilliant credentials suggesting that I am in fact a savvy fellow, and I still think so.

It's a bit weird to be told that my tastes are the result of crass marketing and lowbrow least-common-denominator game design, but it doesn't bother me that much because I know it's wrong. It's just that people's tastes and reactions differ.

 
Ironically, Marcus, I played every one of those titles you cited (with the exception of the Wheel of Time game, never heard of that), and yet I preferred Halo to all of them.

I really think it's a matter of taste. Even for Yahtzee.

1) That's not ironic.

2) You're the first person I've seen say that. Ever.

3) There are outliers in every group.
Yay statistics.  Anyways that list of games was just me looking through my list of stuff I own up on IGN* and finding decent examples of things firmly in the FPS genre.  Halo was actually almost on that list for a while, as I'd been contemplating purchasing the PC version idly for a while.  I don't own it now because stores nearby my house just wouldn't put the darn thing on sale, and I wasn't going to pay 50 dollars for it.  Hearing that the port performed poorly, and of course Microsoft's stupid "Halo 2 requires Vista"** antics ensuring I'd probably never play the sequel also helped cement that decision.

It's rather glad that I didn't, as I hadn't really read up on all the myriad ways Halo was mediocre back then, and I find it highly credulous that a PC port of an FPS designed for consoles*** would compare favorably with the ones actually designed for the PC.  Having played it on my relatives X-Box I found that everything I'd heard about it (or assumed since it was an FPS designed for a bloody console) was in fact entirely true.

I don't hate Halo, and I certainly don't think it's a bad game.  It's just nothing particularly special, and thus the highly unwarranted and misplaced enthusiasm people have for it gets on my nerves, as much more interesting or better executed titles get overlooked as a result.  It doesn't really help that the stereotypical Halo enthusiast is such an easy target for mockery either.



*If you happen to look at my game collection and wonder why I have some relatively crappy titles mixed in with all the excellent ones, they were either a gift from some well meaning but uninformed relative, something my brother purchased originally, or something I found in a bargain bin for 5 bucks.

**This is of course a flat out LIE, as anyone with half a brain knew that the X-Box wasn't running DirectX 10, which would be the only reason a title couldn't be run in XP.  Of course every other developer on the planet doesn't use DX10 exclusively because that would be shooting their sales figures in the proverbial foot, so Microsoft tried to artificially drive demand for the Vista upgrade by crippling Shadowrun and Halo 2 so they wouldn't run on XP.  Telling PC gamers that Halo 2, which was ALREADY 3 YEARS OLD when it finally came out for their platform, was somehow a Vista-only game.......didn't really make them a lot of friends.

***Think "The Special Olympics" for my mental image of the FPS console market.
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That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Hmm, I happen to disagree. I think that Halo is a better designed game than most of the other shooters that have been listed here, and I do think it's something really special. It comes from a long and hallowed lineage, too, stretching all the way back to Marathon.

It's just my opinion, though.

Here's something I think is interesting: people who get a lot of pro-Halo buzz seem to really hate the game, because the human instinct for contrarianism is strong and it drives them to see the flaws. Conversely, people who didn't get pushed towards Halo by every screaming preteen on the planet are a bit more likely to find it intriguing.

I'm not saying that the Halo detractors are biased, I'm saying that everybody is biased, which is what creates these seemingly enormous rifts between, say, me and thesizzler. We're both liable to think we're objective and the other party is crazy -- for example, thesizzler probably rolled his eyes when I said I thought Halo was such a great game -- but we're both equally nuts here.

That's why I don't want to argue too strongly. I don't feel much of a need to assert my intellectual hegemony over others when it's founded on such shaky ground. I'm mostly just concerned with what I enjoy.

I got into Halo by reading strategy guides in stores. I was absolutely enthralled by the art design and the environment of the Halo ring itself -- it had an impact on me that no previous game had ever matched. The Covenant Elites were a particular point of admiration, as I recall.

  
Okay, now I officially think you're crazy.

I really don't see how that impressed you.

Also the "better executed" was probably a poor word choice, as one thing I won't deny about the Halo games is that they are polished.  I probably meant "more innovative" or something along those lines, I kept having to get up and do other things while writing that so I got distracted.
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Yep, I'd agree, Halo was not innovative. It is something like Freespace in that respect.

That's a Halo 3 elite. I agree, not very impressive. The Halo 1 versions were the intriguing ones.

 
It's a matter of opinion, I think that's all that is really needed to end this argument...

I do believe this is the most intelligent statement I've seen in this thread yet...

...though continuing it is always fun.

...or it would be but for that part. :rolleyes:
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

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Offline Polpolion

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Hmm, I happen to disagree. I think that Halo is a better designed game than most of the other shooters that have been listed here, and I do think it's something really special. It comes from a long and hallowed lineage, too, stretching all the way back to Marathon.

It's just my opinion, though.

Here's something I think is interesting: people who get a lot of pro-Halo buzz seem to really hate the game, because the human instinct for contrarianism is strong and it drives them to see the flaws. Conversely, people who didn't get pushed towards Halo by every screaming preteen on the planet are a bit more likely to find it intriguing.

I'm not saying that the Halo detractors are biased, I'm saying that everybody is biased, which is what creates these seemingly enormous rifts between, say, me and thesizzler. We're both liable to think we're objective and the other party is crazy -- for example, thesizzler probably rolled his eyes when I said I thought Halo was such a great game -- but we're both equally nuts here.

That's why I don't want to argue too strongly. I don't feel much of a need to assert my intellectual hegemony over others when it's founded on such shaky ground. I'm mostly just concerned with what I enjoy.

I got into Halo by reading strategy guides in stores. I was absolutely enthralled by the art design and the environment of the Halo ring itself -- it had an impact on me that no previous game had ever matched. The Covenant Elites were a particular point of admiration, as I recall.

For ****'s sake, we know that that's your opinion. Rather than simply shouting that, please give some facts that you base that opinion on so we can actually do something in this thread. If you base your opinions on nothing but pure arbitrariness, then I doubt your opinions are valid enough to be counted towards anything.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 08:26:02 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline blackhole

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For ****'s sake, we know that that's your opinion.

EXACTLY

It's a matter of opinion, I think that's all that is really needed to end this argument, though continuing it is always fun.

This entire thing is all about opinion. No one person's opinion is any more valid then any other person's, because we are all equal, and no one is more equal then anyone else because of the number of games they've played. I tout Halo 1 as one of my favorite games, not because of its innovative gameplay, or level design, or graphics. No, I list it as one of my favorite games because its fun, goddamn it. Its a game. Its job is to be fun. It did that. Why the hell is this argument continuing? Or are you seriously living up to Snail's ending clause there and *****ing about this for your own entertainment?

Its a matter of opinion, people.

 

Offline General Battuta

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:nervous:  Aw, sorry. I didn't realize I would come across that way -- I was actually aiming to be a bit meek. I was worried that if I did voice any opinions I'd just be shot down, thesizzler, but it appears I erred too far in the other direction.

I thought the stuff about human psychology was kind of interesting. I have a weakness for those kind of cognitive-hacks things. I read a lot of research by a guy named Boaz Keysar, on the topic of egocentric communication, and thought it applicable.

I can, however, tie that into Halo. There is a concept in psychology called 'flow'. You might think of it as a sort of Zen state. Bear with me, please, this is really cool!

Flow is the state you enter when you're 'in a groove', when you feel a kind of exhilaration, as if you there's momentum behind every one of your actions. You you can make the right decisions without deliberation or conscious thought. You've probably felt this quite a bit when playing Freespace. I think it's what really makes Halo great.

Halo, as a game, is highly elegant. The designers integrated three aspects of combat - melee, grenades, and gunfire -- in a way that no prior game had accomplished quite as well. As a result, every single encounter in Halo is a fluid, holistic dance. The shield bar serves as a kind of timer, keeping the beat -- once it's depleted, you need to take a brief rest and then launch into another stanza.

Do you see what I'm saying? The combat is continuous rather than discrete, as opposed to a title like, say, Gears of War, which consists of punctuated bursts of violence while moving between cover, or System Shock, which is more atmospheric than balletic. In Halo, when your gun runs dry, you throw grenades, or you melee, or you go for cover, or you move to allow a friend to cover you. As a player, you move through a continuous network of actions -- a kind of enormous flowchart.

What Halo does, and the reason it's a masterpiece, is build a better flowchart than other games, even superlative games like Far Cry, Call of Duty 4, or Battlefield. It's more seamless. It sucks you into the flow state more successfully, and it has fewer flaws that might knock you free of it.

There are two other aspects I'd like to highlight.

The first is design. Particularly in Halo 1 and 3, the art style is gorgeous and elegant, and each enemy comes with a distinct set of behaviors that gives them a real personality. The AI is superlative -- the Elites in Halo 1 are, along with the Replica soldiers from FEAR, the game enemies that I most respect as opponents. The game physics do exactly as much as they need to in order to enhance the combat, and nothing more; they don't distract or overpower it. Halo 1's physics engine was particularly notable for its phenomenal handling of vehicles and collisions.

The second is atmosphere. The Halo story is beautiful in its minimalism. On the surface it appears to appeal only to testosterone-infused prepubescent males, but it goes deeeep. There are layers and layers of clues that are intentionally aimed (by Bungie) at a more mature audience, namely the older fans they grabbed with Marathon and who have remained interested for more than a decade. The story's enhanced by a masterful soundtrack (slightly overblown towards the Halo 3 end, I think).

So, er.

I know you're probably already picking out areas to criticize, possibly even some gaping, humiliating holes, thesizzler. But I think that Halo's genius isn't resident in any one place. It's an emergent phenomenon, a kind of polished magic. Halo is an elegant shooter because it focuses entirely on combat, nothing more; there are no puzzles or RPG elements. It always puts fun before realism.

There are plenty of weaknesses in the game which probably spoil the magic for some people. For others, everything clicks, and it's one of the greatest games ever made.

I guess that's my nutshell answer: Halo is the shooter which best makes everything click together.

I will also note, as I did earlier in the thread, that it's really accessible and addictive. There's a small group of girls in my dorm who get together to play Halo every week, particularly cooperative campaign mode. They won't touch other games. Of course, you may just say that's because it's too simple?

This really isn't meant as an assault on other games (which I love dearly). I definitely understand the points other people make. But I also think Halo can stand on its own and earn some respect alongside other games; it doesn't need to be torn down.

Now, if people are ignoring other games in favor of Halo, that's a separate issue, but not a reason to tear into Halo itself.

Does that all seem reasonable, or am I accidentally seeming somehow rabid again?








 
Yep, I'd agree, Halo was not innovative. It is something like Freespace in that respect.

      Am I the only one who played games before 2003? Halo was innovative FOR ITS TIME. Now it no longer is. Kinda the point of innovative is that its innovative, games pick up the innovative element(s), and it becomes cliche. Halo had way advanced graphics for the age and also introduced the two-weapon limit. I dare you to find a game before Halo that has a limit like that. Now, I'm not saying that it's God's gift to gamers (that was Half-Life 2) but Halo was innovative for its time, and unfortunately none of its sequels have been innovative. As far as I'm concerned both of Halo's sequels piggybacked on their predecessor's success and didn't come anywhere close to revolutionizing the genre, but that's a story for another time.

EDIT: General Battuta, I thank you for posting so elaborately and concisely, but please post AFTER I do... (jk)

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"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline CP5670

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Quote
For ****'s sake, we know that that's your opinion. Rather than simply shouting that, please give some facts that you base that opinion on so we can actually do something in this thread. If you base your opinions on nothing but pure arbitrariness, then I doubt your opinions are valid enough to be counted towards anything.

I agree with that to some extent. True, it is all a matter of personal preferences in the end, but at the same time there is no point in discussing anything if your opinions are not backed by any objective standards at all. I'm sure there are people out there who think Big Rigs is genuinely a great game just because it's fun. :p

Also, in my case, I can and do make a distinction between games that I personally enjoyed a lot or spent a lot of time with, and those that I consider to be great (in the sense that I would recommend them to others). As I said earlier, you can have a lot of fun with just about any game, and that in itself is not very meaningful for purposes of comparison.

Quote
Am I the only one who played games before 2003? Halo was innovative FOR ITS TIME. Now it no longer is. Kinda the point of innovative is that its innovative, games pick up the innovative element(s), and it becomes cliche. Halo had way advanced graphics for the age and also introduced the two-weapon limit. I dare you to find a game before Halo that has a limit like that. Now, I'm not saying that it's God's gift to gamers (that was Half-Life 2) but Halo was innovative for its time, and unfortunately none of its sequels have been innovative. As far as I'm concerned both of Halo's sequels piggybacked on their predecessor's success and didn't come anywhere close to revolutionizing the genre, but that's a story for another time.

If Halo was a 2003 game (which I'm not sure is correct), I can certainly think of some PC titles from the same period that had comparable or better graphics. There were earlier games that had similar weapon limits (007: Nightfire for example, and if I remember right MOH:AA did too, at least in multiplayer), and of course, there were also games like Deus Ex that put the limit on your overall inventory, with different weapons taking up different amounts of space.

As for the comment about Half Life 2, the less said the better. :p
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 10:38:01 pm by CP5670 »

 

Offline Ransom

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The second is atmosphere. The Halo story is beautiful in its minimalism. On the surface it appears to appeal only to testosterone-infused prepubescent males, but it goes deeeep. There are layers and layers of clues that are intentionally aimed (by Bungie) at a more mature audience, namely the older fans they grabbed with Marathon and who have remained interested for more than a decade.
I've heard this more than once, and I'd really like to see some evidence of it.

But if there is some deep story here, I'm not sure I agree that it excuses the trash on the surface. Unless I'm very mistaken there's no good reason to bury something clever under one-dimensional characters, flimsy dialogue and deus ex machinas. Oh, but are we talking about the first Halo here? Because it must be said I actually enjoyed Halo 2's story and I haven't played Halo 3 at all. So my criticisms of Halo's story are mostly limited to the first game.

But the gameplay, that's fair enough. I can't say I felt the same flow you (and apparently countless others) did, but I can see where you're coming from. It certainly helps explain why people seem to like it so much.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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IMO, Halo's good at providing a distraction to RL just like FS is, both do it in different ways, people have different gaming palettes.  Mine is happy with both flavoUrs of game :D
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline Mefustae

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But if there is some deep story here, I'm not sure I agree that it excuses the trash on the surface. Unless I'm very mistaken there's no good reason to bury something clever under one-dimensional characters, flimsy dialogue and deus ex machinas. Oh, but are we talking about the first Halo here? Because it must be said I actually enjoyed Halo 2's story and I haven't played Halo 3 at all. So my criticisms of Halo's story are mostly limited to the first game.

But the gameplay, that's fair enough. I can't say I felt the same flow you (and apparently countless others) did, but I can see where you're coming from. It certainly helps explain why people seem to like it so much.
Halo 3 really fell down in the story department.

The transition from Halo to Halo 2 was relatively smooth. Master Chief escaped, Halo was destroyed. The opening cinematic picked up pretty much where the game ended. Apparently, that was too much to expect from Halo 3, which began a good while after the conclusion of Halo 2 and stoically refused to help the player fill in the gaps. Better we just do what the game tells us, and don't ask questions later.

Everything sort of spirals downward from that inauspicious beginning. Ignoring the innumerable smaller issues, the biggest problem with Halo 3's storyline was that it took itself way, way too seriously. It aimed for complex, and hit confusing. It aimed for poignant, and scored laughable. I went in at the start expecting to be blown away by new revelations and having the mysteries and complexities of Halo revealed to me. By the half-way point, I had resolved that I would be happy just to have a few loose ends tied complete with a nice ending. By the finale I had totally lost any interest I had in the storyline, I just wanted to get it over with so I could give the multiplayer a half-assed go.

If you're like me and actually felt immersed and interested in the Haloverse story by the end of Halo 2, don't bother looking any further. You'll find nothing but overwhelming disappointment. Such a promising new sci-fi universe, such a ****ing waste.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 07:13:21 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Not enough Cortana for my liking, (in a healthy non perverted way) The banter of that bird chirping in you ear and hacking the covenant net made Halo 1 and 2 quite fun. (also if you've read the fall of reach you can relate more to their relationship) She was made for the Spartan Programme :nod:  :o
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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