[Snail]

I'm pretty sure the statement came from after the release of FS2 anyway. So to Mobius:

[Mars]

I'm pretty sure the statement came from after the release of FS2 anyway. So to Mobius:

I'm not the only one who feels like that when I get in a discussion with Mobius?

Beams go right through player shields and damage the hull without depleting them. One common explanation is that they'd go right through Lucifer shields too. Thus making them those shield pretty much useless against other capships. Balanced against the fact that the shield generators are a weakness in subspace it's probably not worth having them on a Sathanas.

1) V has stated that the Ancients were only 20 years ahead of the FS1 Terrans/Vasudans in all areas except subspace technology. This might mean that the Ancients have beam tech.

2) In FS1 cutscenes, the Ancients seem to talk about the invincibility of the Lucifer even though they found out how to destroy it at the very end. In other words, they couldn't beam through those shields.

So perhaps the Lucifer's shields were invulnerable or very resistant to beam fire. We don't know. In terms of "what V intended", I just write it off as a plot hole that Volition didn't care for.

IMO Terrans and Vasudans only got beam weaponry because of their encounter with the Shivans. Therefore I doubt the Ancients had beam weapons with their 2355 equivalent technology.

[Kopachris]

My theory: 8472 Theory
I need to revise it, I left out a bit of stuff.  Basically, the Ancients used subspace to get into a different universe/dimension and attacked the Shivans, the Shivans retaliated, the Ancients were destroyed, the portal to their realm was destroyed.  The Shivans already had beam weaponry, the Sathanases, a Lucifer, and the Lucifer's shields.  They used the Sathanases on the star beyond Gamma Draconis, but it didn't work, the star went supernova, and they had to make an exodus across the galaxy, until they realized that the Terrans and Vasudans would develop space travel, which would cause the subspace shockwave from the Capella star (the star they deemed perfect to get back) going supernova to travel along the subspace nodes and wipe out every charted system in the galaxy.  So, they attacked us to get us to cut off Capella.  Did they get back to their realm?  We may never know for sure.

If you can, please counter my theory or bring up a weak point so I can fix it.  So far, I think that my theory fits pretty well with what's canon.  The Ancients are no better than the Borg...

[Mustang19]

Can't really argue with anything in the theory.

You see, the information we have on the Shivans is so disjointed that virtually any theory can be justified by canon. I've read the article and I haven't noticed anything really off-the-wall. In fact, virtually every theory has already been discussed to death, so it's rare for anyone to say anything novel.

In general I'd say it looks good. Here are a few little things:

The supernova of Capella, the star they determined would be perfect for the job, would end life in the galaxy as we knew it, if the shockwaves in subspace were allowed to travel along the subspace conduits that connect stars.

Petrarch never mentioned that the actual supernova would reach the rest of GTVA space; apparently you need a subspace drive to make subspace jumps, matter doesn't just "drift" into and out of subspace.

Only then would the scientists-made-refugees be led to Altair, where remains of the Ancients would lead them to better subspace technology.

This comes after a mention of Capella, so I assume you're talking about FS2. By FS2 the GTVA was already thoroughly studying the Ancient sites and had probably rediscovered all of the Ancient's subspace technology that they could by then.

What I really like is how you explain what Petrarch meant when he said that the Shivans were looking for a new home. But again, the FS story is pretty disjointed- for all we know V could have been making things up as they went along. So don't worry about having the "correct" theory, there is none.

[Kopachris]

Remember, the GTVA doesn't have the knowledge of subspace that the Shivans do.  The Shivans knew that fear would lead us to cut off the system.  Also, it's not all in order of how it happened.  It sorta goes event, then explain what led to it.  The scientists in Altair was from FS1, after Vasuda Prime was destroyed.  I'll clarify that.

[terran_emperor]

Before i can explain my theory on the Sathanas and shields i have to explain my inturpetation of the Death Star.

The Death Star was a huge space station build initially for the purpose of carrying the Super-Laser. Sure, it was large enough to be used for other purposes.
But basically, my understanding of the Death Star is that it is primarily an anti-planetary weapon platform, but is large enough and armed enough to also serve as a Command Centre and Super Carrier.
(I'm ignoring the Tarkin, Eclipse class super-Star Destroyer and the Dark Sabre and others that harried the Super-Laser and going stictly by the films)


---Sathanas
FIRST OFF, I do not in anyway buy the super-node theory. I think they destabalised the star then jumped into subspace to wait out the super-nova. Like diving underwater to avoid waves in the ocean.

IMHO, most of the Sathanas consist of the Subspace weapon Genarator and the reactors that power those 4 BFReds at the front. Individually, Saths probaly functions as dedicated ship-busters. Their could probably take out a small moon on their own. I reackon at least 2/3 to take out a Mercuary sized planet. And the number required increases with planet size. Hey - it did take 80+ to act as a star-buster in capella. Though i reckon that the number Varies according to the size and spctral-type of the star ie 50+ to take out a red-dwarf and 150+ to destroy a super giant.

But basically the sathanas is a subspace-weapon platform

But, i digress. I think for whatever reason the sathanas cant generate the energy required to shield the itself. I dont know, maybe the Subpace weapon reactor, is so delecate that it can't be used for Shield or something like that) Anyway, i figure that in order to genarate the power required to shield a sathanas, it would need more reactors than the lucifer had. Adding these reactors would make the ship bigger. Therefore more power is required to shield the ship. Therefore, more more reactors are required. Therefore the ship gets bigger and the cycle begins all over again.

To put it simply, attempting to shield a Sathanas results in a feedback loop resulting in the ship getting bigger and bigger, until it collapses under its own weight and becomes a black hole. Therefore it is not worth the effort or resources to do so

Personally, i think that the Lucifer was the perfect compromise. It was basically a beam-weapon platform. The two on the arms on the original model. 4 if you go cutscene accurate or use the HTL model. However, the reactors/genarators required for those weapons were small enough that shield genarators could be included.

[Snail]

I don't think you'd be able to just "sit" in subspace like that. A supernova can take a looooong time to cool down. I really doubt the Shivans could just stay in subspace for that long.

[Kopachris]

Yes, a supernova takes a long time.  I still think my theory of another universe and that the supernova combined with the subspace stuff takes them to their universe.  Confusing stuff, subspace is.  Also, you must remember that they were not simply "destroying" a star, they were making it go supernova.  Usually, the smaller the star, the stabler, and the larger, the less stable.  As such, it should take fewer Sathanases to make a supergiant go supernova and more to make a dwarf go supernova.  It's all about gravity.  The more mass, the more gravity.  The more gravity, the more fuel it takes to keep the star stable.  It is conceivable that the Sathanases subspace pulses caused Capella's fusion to rapidly increase, then suddenly shut down.  I plan on being a game designer, and I want to make my games as plausible as possible, which is why I enjoy learning science and physics.

[Snail]

Capella was not a gas giant, though.

[terran_emperor]

  Where did that come from Snail?

Look. Thats not the point. Im not turning this into a thread about capella theories.

Besides if, as is widely theorised, the shivans are inhabitants of subspace, then waiting around in subspace for the supernova to finish would be simple.

Ignoring the supernova itself for now, i say the sathanas is essentially a mobile subspace weapon platform. It has a crew area to pilot and fire the damn thing and a fighter bay & turrets for defence.
And unlike to Lucifer, it was too big to shield. The bigger the ship, the more shield genarators are required. The more shield genarators there are, the bigger ships.
The Lucifer was the right size to shield of enough importance. and the other shivan caps, FS1 era werent worth shielding

[Killer Whale]

If shield's don't block beams (which most people are saying, I don't see why, and if they're photons i have to say that the lasers on your fighter/bomber are similar and get stopped by shields, why beams so differant) then there's not much of a point, if you don't have beams, it's almost as inderstructable by it's massive hitpoints than if it did have shields, and beams go straight through shields, so what's the point? Apart from blocking out meson mines or something, which any good fighter could do (saddly, AI isn't that fantastic).

If shields do block beams (your fighter is smaller than a warship [obviously], it has a smaller reactor [obviously], so it isn't as strong. If the shields did block beams, you'd be left with low shield as well as low hull!! A warship has a bigger reactor, and it's big enough for it's reactors to stop, or at least soften, the power behind a beam, and that shield might just save the thousands of lives on board [plus the cost to make it]) then the juggernauts would have to make a new (and powerfull) reactor that can protect the massive surface area of the ship. That might make it a whole lot bigger, and take a lot more recources to build, and require bigger engines, more armour, and might just double the volume of the ship (doubt it though, but you get my point). Then when you jump into space, the shields miraculously don't work, and is at the most favoured attack spot. As shivans have a sensitivity to subspace, they must view it even more than terrans do (they saw it as a disaster, a great travelling road to travel across, and to expand their race, when sol and cappella went, they were mourned, the shivans probably like it even better, and it is seen as a tremendous disaster to fall a node) and therefore do not want that to happen, and wouldn't encourage their enemies to blow up nodes containing warships.

That a good comment? *hopeful hopeful*

[Jeff Vader]

If shield's don't block beams (which most people are saying, I don't see why

I believe I have read somewhere that actually stated that the energy output of a beam cannon is enough to punch through the shields. Which is why the GTVA assumed that the Colossus could stop yet another Shivan invasion; even another Lucy. This would also at least partially explain why AAAf beams pierce fighter shields. Note that I'm not sure about this, though. I think I remember reading this, but I'm not certain.

[Killer Whale]

Why doesn't your shield go to zero as so as yiu get hit then?

[Jeff Vader]

Why doesn't your shield go to zero as so as yiu get hit then?

Does your entire house collapse if you drill a hole through the wall?

[Killer Whale]

depends what the drills like, it might tear a wall down, and the rest of the house follows it, or it might make a thin hole in one bit of the wall, or somewhere in between. But a shield equalizes to each quadrant, automatically and quickly (not to the whole ship, just each quadrent), so that would mean the beam has to drill through that entire quadrant and into you ship, but that doesn't happen. Also the bigger and rougher the drill, the more of the wall/house comes down, i think beams are pretty big, even to a twenty metre ship.

[Jeff Vader]

I tend to think that the beams themselves are quite thin, but when they react with the (mostly non-existing) gases and particles in space, a big, shiny and graphically pleasing light effect occurs.

And idk. Maybe AAAf beams have been designed so, that they don't care about shields; just go through.

[Killer Whale]

And soon enough, shields become as useless as when we didn't have them because everyone knows how to punch through them without worrying about them, and new lasers would be made that punch through shields like the beams. Great! Now the shivans have actually go to turn around and face us, with a lot more ships to boot.  ande weapons and defences will just become sudden and massively important, then useless and a new one would have to be found like

[Snail]

I tend to think that the beams themselves are quite thin, but when they react with the (mostly non-existing) gases and particles in space, a big, shiny and graphically pleasing light effect occurs.

I think it's because Health & Safety ordered the GTVA to add gases into their beams so you could see where they were. Like tracer rounds. Apparently the Shivans also have Health & Safety.

[Jeff Vader]

I tend to think that the beams themselves are quite thin, but when they react with the (mostly non-existing) gases and particles in space, a big, shiny and graphically pleasing light effect occurs.

I think it's because Health & Safety ordered the GTVA to add gases into their beams so you could see where they were. Like tracer rounds. Apparently the Shivans also have Health & Safety.

No arguments here, Mr. Trent.

[Mawhrin]

Concerning the topic title - one may as well ask why the Cain doesn't have shields. A shielded, fast anti fighter cruiser would be very useful. I'd suggest that there are trade-offs happening here:

Firstly, cost. Big shields are expensive. It may be that the Shivans have decided to sacrifice quality in exchange for quantity. The existence of Scorpion and Shaitan craft could be examples. Even the lack of beams on FS1 era craft could be. This may be because of strategic overstretch, a huge area to patrol and limited manufacturing capacity. Real world example: the British Royal Navy between the wars built cruisers with limited armament, well below what was allowed by international treaty, as they needed numbers to patrol the Empire and Commonwealth. Other maritime powers, especially Japan, built right up to those limits.

Secondly, the needed extra reactors are themselves vulnerabilities should the shield be bypassed somehow. See the death of the Lucifer.

As the Shivans knew the Lucy had died, and as they saw the GTVA had beams from the encounter in Gamma Draconis, they decided to hold back any shielded ships.

Which leaves the question of why the Lucy had shields. The Shivans wanted a big ship with big beams to kill planets and GTA/PVN destroyers and installations. This is itself a huge investment, and there's a risk the beam cannons would be blown off. As far as they knew, however, the shields would make it utterly impervious to GTA/PVN attacks and thus the extra investment eliminated any risk. The Shivans keep a few shielded ships around for bullying less advanced species.

Maybe AAAf beams have been designed so, that they don't care about shields; just go through.

I was under the impression that anti cap ship beams also pierced fighter shields. It's rare to survive long enough to see if shields are still up.