[MP-Ryan]

the real purpose of religion is so the ruling elite can keep their power while the common people waste all their time debating and practicing religion when they should be dethroning those who have power.

Marxist argument.  You should read Foucault - he's better.

[Fearless Leader]

Actually, the only countries where the Government and Church aren't constantly wrangling over 'moral dilemmas' are the ones where the Government IS the church, and many of those are just scary, because they impose what they consider to be a 'higher law', whilst not actually having any accountability to the fact that those laws are being enforced as intended.

right, my point exactly

[karajorma]

The CC encourages not using contraception, it doesn't order it.

We had this argument. You were proved wrong. You learned nothing at all.

In 1997, the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family stated:

    "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity; it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life

On July 17, 1994, John Paul II clarified the Church's position

Therefore, when there is a reason not to procreate, this choice is permissible and may even be necessary. However, there remains the duty of carrying it out with criteria and methods that respect the total truth of the marital act in its unitive and procreative dimension, as wisely regulated by nature itself in its biological rhythms. One can comply with them and use them to advantage, but they cannot be "violated" by artificial interference.

Yeah. It's just encouraged.

[Nuke]

i don't consider the usa to have separation of church and state. sure you try to pray in school, or in my case visit the church of satan website, they will thump your skull. but what happens in every political campaign for office, whatever office that may be? the politicians try to appeal to the church for votes. sometimes they take political views that parallel the way the church sees things, in an attempt to gain votes. the whole anti gay marriage thing for example. now i know that most of these politicians couldn't care less one way or the other, they just see it as pleasing the most people and thus bringing the most votes. politicians will always tilt their views to favor what they see as the majority of the population. also when most of the voters are evil christians, that also tilts the government. there is no separation of church and state. its a myth.

[Kosh]

I read somewhere that 52% of Americans would not vote for a well qualified Atheist for president

[TrashMan]

*SNIP*

"Therefore, when there is a reason not to procreate, this choice is permissible and may even be necessary."

i don't consider the usa to have separation of church and state. sure you try to pray in school, or in my case visit the church of satan website, they will thump your skull. but what happens in every political campaign for office, whatever office that may be? the politicians try to appeal to the church for votes. sometimes they take political views that parallel the way the church sees things, in an attempt to gain votes. the whole anti gay marriage thing for example. now i know that most of these politicians couldn't care less one way or the other, they just see it as pleasing the most people and thus bringing the most votes. politicians will always tilt their views to favor what they see as the majority of the population. also when most of the voters are evil christians, that also tilts the government. there is no separation of church and state. its a myth.

Are you surprised the politicians try to gain favor with the majority? If the majority was "the leauge for mandatory pogo sticks" they would claim it's the way to go.


and..."evil christians"? 

[Mustang19]

Posting on HLP is a form of contraception in itself...

Anyway, in your opinion, Trashman, what would be a good reason to not procreate under the pope's definition?

[karajorma]

"Therefore, when there is a reason not to procreate, this choice is permissible and may even be necessary."

Seriously? You're hinging your argument on that?

That was actually the pope saying that you don't have to have kids if you can't afford to feed them, etc. In those cases you may use natural family planning methods to prevent pregnancy. The pope was not saying that you can use contraception. The rest of the sentence quite clearly points that out.

But feel free to come out with the usual nonsense.

[Fearless Leader]

well... Im glad I dont answer to the Vatican

[Nuke]

i say we should drop some warheads on it

[Fearless Leader]

I wouldnt go that far.....

[Turambar]

I wouldnt go that far.....

its ok, nuke advocates using warheads on most things

[Fearless Leader]

Interesting...