[James Freeman]

And from the Shivan's POV, none the less... Note that I'm going into the future of Freespace, one that I hope either I or someone else will make into a campaign.

We live in a place we call Shadowspace, a place where realspace and subspace interact to create the subspace tunnels used for transport. We lived here for millions of years, never interrupted by those in realspace until one day...

When the ancients built the first Knossos device, we thought they were building a superweapon. We built ships, prepared to destroy them at any cost. It was only afterward that we realized they had only tried to stabilize a subspace node... That day, our race took a vow to destroy those who did not seek peace before war.

And then the war you call the fourteen years war broke out. Seeing that neither side appeared to want peace, and believing the war without true cause due to faulty intelligence, we prepared to attack. And we did, with devastating effect. And our hostility toward your races, who we thought where incessantly violent, was not stopped until the third great war's most devastating battle, the one we term the battle of fools.
We moved toward a system that held an infant race, one we believed the GTVA would destroy. That was when several human scientists sent a message in our language:

Why do you want to destroy a helpless race? We do not understand.

That was the day we realized we had been fools. We had fallen to our own aggressive tendencies and nearly destroyed two innocent races because of it.

But the research that the GTVA had done on the ancients revealed something very startling: the Ancients saw us as a race to be destroyed, because we wouldn't understand their warlike ways. Perhaps we were wiser than we thought, those thousands of years ago...

(Note: yes, the Shadowspace part is mostly conjecture on my part.)

[Dark Hunter]

Assigning motives to Shivans is a tricky thing to do, since... well, the only thing we know about them is that they are very smart about subspace and they kill anything non-Shivan.

Yours is a good attempt, I must say. But why the Shivans would misconstrue a Knossos as a superweapon is a bit beyond me, I'll admit.

The one part that confuses me is this:

But the research that the GTVA had done on the ancients revealed something very startling: the Ancients saw us as a race to be destroyed, because we wouldn't understand their warlike ways. Perhaps we were wiser than we thought, those thousands of years ago...

As I understand it, the Ancients were a race of conquerors... and at first, didn't see the Shivans as anything more than another species to subjugate. Only after the Shivans began kicking their asses did the Ancients begin to assign different labels to the Shivans (Cosmic Destroyers). And why exactly would the Shivans think they were wiser back then? I thought they just realized how being hostile-by-default was bad?

[Jeff Vader]

When the ancients built the first Knossos device, we thought they were building a superweapon. We built ships, prepared to destroy them at any cost.

I'm also sceptic about that part. Maybe I'm interpreting it the wrong way but to me it seems like you're suggesting that the Shivans lived in peace and were just chilling around until they found out about the Ancients building Knossoses. And then they began building ships. And probably doing some development on technology as well. There is no canon proof in one direction or another, but I'd still assume that it does take time even for the Shivans to build ships, not to mention develop space ship, shield and weapon technology in the first place.

Kudos for the attempt, but... you know.

[James Freeman]

When the ancients built the first Knossos device, we thought they were building a superweapon. We built ships, prepared to destroy them at any cost.

I'm also sceptic about that part. Maybe I'm interpreting it the wrong way but to me it seems like you're suggesting that the Shivans lived in peace and were just chilling around until they found out about the Ancients building Knossoses. And then they began building ships. And probably doing some development on technology as well. There is no canon proof in one direction or another, but I'd still assume that it does take time even for the Shivans to build ships, not to mention develop space ship, shield and weapon technology in the first place.

Kudos for the attempt, but... you know.

Thanks for the criticism, this theory is not final in any way. I've got a little too much on my mind (IE my cousin's wedding), so it wasn't as coherent as I wanted it to be. However, the gist of the matter is that the Shivans thought that GTVA was a danger to all other life (due to incorrect intel on the Terran-Vasudan war), thus deciding to destroy them. They had this sort of 'policy' because of the ancients, who they first attacked (without using diplomacy as a first option) because they had assumed the ancients where building Knossoses as weapons, due to their ability to open subspace nodes that had collapsed, causing a subspace tunnel to open and destroy whatever was in its way in shadowspace. The Shivans thought that they should have used diplomacy first (even though the ancients would have tried to destroy them anyway), so they thought that any race that did not try to negotiate should be destroyed.
Also, something about 'Shadowspace': physics there is not very different than in 'realspace', and the Shivans had the tech to move into realspace  for a long time. They had never encountered each other until the ancients started building Knossos portals.

[Retsof]

Hmmm... verrrry interesting.  I for one like the theories that the shivans are more than simply xenocidal maniacs.

[Snail]

Hmmm... verrrry interesting.  I for one like the theories that the shivans are more than simply xenocidal maniacs.

Agreed, but certain themes in this theory are intriguing.

[James Freeman]

Hmmm... verrrry interesting.  I for one like the theories that the shivans are more than simply xenocidal maniacs.

Thanks! Remember, this is not a fully-thought out theroy. I'd acctually like some advice on it, unlike the Shivan Manifesto.
I hate how everyone casts Shivans as illogical nutcases. It feels like something out of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galixy (in fact, I think there was a xenocidal race in HHGG! ).

[Jeff Vader]

(in fact, I think there was a xenocidal race in HHGG! ).

You mean the Krikitters?

[James Freeman]

(in fact, I think there was a xenocidal race in HHGG! ).

You mean the Krikitters?

Ah, thats who I was thinking of. I remember those guys as being the epitome of xenocidal, and the supernova bomb (I think it was called that, anyway) that would cause every star in the universe to go Nova was VERY reminiscent of the end of Freespace 2... Wait a sec!
Now is going to kill me for realizing what the Shivans really were!
 
[/sarcasm]

[IceFire]

Its a fair attempt at a theory...and the Shvians and their motives, particularly during FS2, are very difficult to pick out if you can find anything at all.  Again I have to fall back on my default position that applying more complex motives to the Shivans generally doesn't seem to work out so well...it doesn't fit with their behavior.  They are more like a force of nature...technological yes...but a force of nature nonetheless.

I do like the connection between subspace, interaction with subspace, and how that affects the Shivans.  That does fit very nicely and indeed something the Ancients did may have disturbed the Shivans.

[Killer Whale]

The shivans could of had shields, beams, and other sorts of such weaponry already. They had enough time to develop it, you don't need a war to get powerfull (though it does help, fragile flyers >>WAR>> flying metal monster of DOOM). They may of used shields as casual protection, to protect themselves from high temperatures and asteroids, for a while. I don't think the lucy would get hurt much by travelling through an asteroid field with shields, but if it didn't, eventually it's hull would breach (after a few thousand collisions). Beams could be used for mining. Though that means that they were in realspace. Who knows, maybe there are just as many obstacles in subspace as in realspace, you just don't ever hit them (stable node [    ], unstable node or no node [.*o] [ie, having an obstacle)

[S-99]

In one of the fs1 cutscenes, the ancients narrative says that they had awoken a slumbering beast/cosmic destroyers (whichever reference that was used in that cutscene to refer to the shivans from the ancients perspective). It was the ancients who had stumbled upon the shivans for sure. Whether the shivans were in hibernation or something and got woken up, or just weren't completely hostile with the ancients until numerous ancients appeared in the system all at once where the ancients discovered the shivans. Maybe the shivans were literally sleeping until woken up, or were just going on there mary way in the first system the ancients encountered them in where the shivans may have not been killing off other species at that time. Or just going on their mary way in that system while the shivans are slaughtering aliens in other systems.

Awakening the shivans could point to literally waking them up, or just a first encounter with the shivans that would have gone bad very fast obviously (this form of waking up could be like waking up the shivans violent tendencies rather than waking them up literally). Though waking them up in the cutscene seems to refer more to slumber/hibernation than my other thinking.

[RedBaron]

Why do you want to destroy a helpless race? We do not understand.

i like this part, but the GTVA isnt helpless^^

[Jeff Vader]

Why do you want to destroy a helpless race? We do not understand.

i like this part, but the GTVA isnt helpless^^

We moved toward a system that held an infant race, one we believed the GTVA would destroy. That was when several human scientists sent a message in our language:[/i]

Why do you want to destroy a helpless race? We do not understand.

I think he means, that this new, previously unknown, non-canon, obviously quite technologically inferior race is helpless. The GTVA inquired, why the Shivans would want to destroy that race. Not that the GTVA was helpless.

[Retsof]

Sooooo..... Did Bosch ask this?

[Killer Whale]

From my understanding, yes.

[Mawhrin]

You haven't explained Capella...

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Sooooo..... Did Bosch ask this?

No, I think it was the future GTVA who figured out ETAK. Bosch did not know anything about an infant race the GTVA could destroy.

You haven't explained Capella...

Yes, that's among the most difficult parts for any theory IMO. Just as the differences between the FS1 and FS2 Shivans. Guess you're still thinking on those?
You do have a very interesting start, however.

[James Freeman]

You haven't explained Capella...

I'm guessing that they felt cornered, and decided to turn Capella into a temporary jump node to escape (and conveniently destroying a huge number of their enemies in the process). It seems like a good move: you get some of your ships out (which probably have the rest of the ships crews on board, or maybe they even ran the juggernauts that got destroyed by remote) and do severe damage to the foe at the same time. Its also quite possible that they can build ships in a very short time, and possibly have a sub-race dedicated to flying fightercraft that matures in a much shorter time (thus allowing them to use swarm tactics VERY effectively), so they didn't loose much. We never really see how advanced the Shivans are compared to the GTVA, outside of the ships themselves, so this is quite plausible.

(I'm getting some inspiration from Arther C Clark/Gentry Lee here. I just finished reading the Rendezvous with Rama series.)

[Retsof]

I just finished reading the Rendezvous with Rama series.

Heh... I'm in "The Garden of Rama" right now.