[Snail]

Hm....Hades syndrome (or Snail syndrome?) - not being capable of understanding a discussion and impulsively accusing someone of not understanding arguments to compensate for his lack of the said ability.

* Snail calls Karajorma

[Hades]

Also Trashman doesn't understand analogys well. Or at sometimes at all. Atleast I get what you where trying to say IceFire.

Apparently I get them better than you do.

Hm....Hades syndrome (or Snail syndrome?) - not being capable of understanding a discussion and impulsively accusing someone of not understanding arguments to compensate for his lack of the said ability.

Actually from what I read from you responding to IceFire, you are not getting them at all... 

[TrashMan]

*grabs shovel*

You want me to use it to sling mud your way or for your grave? Your call.

[Snail]

You want me to use it to sling mud your way or for your grave? Your call.

This thread has been pointless for about 2 pages.

[TrashMan]

No kidding Sherlock!

[Snail]

No kidding Sherlock!

I believe the phrase is "No **** Sherlock"

[AlphaOne]

Hey TMan i was not refering to moder day BS . I was comparing a moder day destroyer witha ww2 BS .

I got the distinct impression that a moder day destroyer is more then a match for any ww2 era BS . I mean it would take like that 2 - 3 missiles to take down a BS. Asuming they hit at the proper places. Also a moder day destroyer usualy has a helicopter which can fire torpedoes. Anyway someone lock this up this is getting ridiculous. Noone is gooing to budge one inch here. I sure as hell am not.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Hey TMan i was not refering to moder day BS . I was comparing a moder day destroyer witha ww2 BS .

I got the distinct impression that a moder day destroyer is more then a match for any ww2 era BS . I mean it would take like that 2 - 3 missiles to take down a BS. Asuming they hit at the proper places. Also a moder day destroyer usualy has a helicopter which can fire torpedoes. Anyway someone lock this up this is getting ridiculous. Noone is gooing to budge one inch here. I sure as hell am not.

       Eh, I've heard different. WW2 Battleship would probably take those missiles and keep on going, unless they were like hit below the waterline.
       Ships today aren't what they were in the 40s. Like the British ship hit by an exocet during the Falklands, if that was an old WW2 battleship that ship would've kept on going. Yeah, people would've died, etcetera . . . but they've got a hell of a lot armour than the newer ships.

You want me to use it to sling mud your way or for your grave? Your call.

This thread has been pointless for about 2 pages.

      Yeah, 2 pages, which interestingly enough coincides exactly with one of your posts. What a straaange coincidence.
      Funny how the death of a discussion is brought about not by its contributors but by the peanut gallery who feel compelled to post for no particular reason.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Also the Lilith is by all intents and purpose a cruiser (YET IT HAS THE ARMOUR OF A CORVETTE) The lilith by all intents and purposes being a said cruiser is not supposed to be able to threaten a destroyer in a very serious manner let alone destroy one.

Why? Because if the Lilith specs are not exaggerated and are not overkill then that must mean that EVERY OTHER SHIP IN FS2 WERE SCREW-UPS. Why? Well according to many of the ppl. here thinking the Ravana should be armed with at least 4 BFReds to start with have 800 k HP  and a fighter complement of 300 crafts.

     Eh, the Lilith had that armour before anything called a "corvette" even existed. If the Lilith was called a Corvette instead would it suddenly become acceptable? The fact that it's called a Cruiser is irrelevant. And incase people haven't really noticed, ships aren't really scaled all that well in terms of hitpoints. Faulting the Lilith for too many hitpoints is like faulting the Hecate for two few.

Leviathan:   35,000  -- 253m
Deimos:       80,000  -- 717m
Hecate:      100,000 -- 2174m


     Are these scaled very portionally? The hecate is three times as long as the Deimos yet only has 25% more armour. The Leviathan is only a third the length of a Deimos yet it has nearly half the number of hitpoints.


    One should note that Volition had time to modify the Lilith's stats.
    The Fenris only had 8500 hitpoints in FS1, in FS2 it was bumped to 10000. The Lilith was 75000, and remained 75000. And hell if the Lilith never made an appearance would anyone even noticed? It appears in the campaign whether people like it or not, but there's nothing saying that Volition had to use it. Some of the older ships they used so rarely at all . . . if a ship was "broken" why wouldn't they just leave it out?

[NGTM-1R]

No, it doesn't. For one it doesn't have the uber-armor like the Lilith has.

A more correct analogy would be a supporting ship class that has the armor of a ship-of-the-line and the same guns such ship use, while at the same time being constructed with methods, materials and limitation used to build the ship-of-the-line. to my knowledge, no such ship exists.

Armored Cruisers of WWI might be close.

But anyways, I beg differ, and note you cut out the part of the post where I made the the point that Abercrombie's speed and manuverability served in effect as extra armor for her; at 34 knots and with a turning radius just over four times her own length at that speed she would have been very hard to kill. If you doubt that, see how many rounds were exchanged in things like the Battle of the Komandorskis. Three heavy cruisers spent literaly hours slugging it out over ranges of eight to ten miles with gunfire. The sum total of hits for the 3000-odd rounds of 8" shell fired was about 12. Somebody zigzagging at 28 knots is hard target when you have to deal with time-of-flight issues for your guns. Or for another example, take the destroyers and destroyer escorts of Taffy 3, which took on the majority of the heavy gunships of the Imperial Japanese Navy; they lost three of six, but they survived for far longer than their pure durablity merited because they were dashing around almost at random at 30 knots and it's damn difficult to hit a destroyer that doesn't want to be hit.

But since in FS speed and manuverability won't save you from the beams, the Lilth has actual and not functional armor. In any case, the way a Lilth is employed tactically and the way Abercrombie was meant to be are almost identical.

But you quibble over a detail easily explained away.

You're digging your hole again, stop while you can still see the surface.



Regarding a modern destroyer being more powerful than a battleship: modern surface-to-surface missiles are all high-explosive warheads. Some of the very large Russian ones like the Shipwreck or Kingfish could probably put a noticible dent even in the armor belt of an Iowa-class, but aside from a supercarrier, they're likely the only ships in the world that have a hope in hell of taking such a hit and continuing that battle, and definitely the only ones that would live through several. Destroyer-scale weapons, such as the US Harpoon, French Exocet, and Russian Sunburn, would simply be laughed off by the armor belt of a 1940's era heavy cruiser. A battleship? It wouldn't even blink.

[TrashMan]

*snip*

You're again switching the discussion to speed instead of armor.

Lilith has armor + firepower and you're constantly comparing it with a ship that has decent firepower + speed, but not the armor. Sorry, but speed is not = armor, no matter what broken logic you try to apply to rationalize that.  And even in fS2 a fast small cruiser can evade beams.

I'm trying to talk about logic.

Armor requires more space, makes the ship heavier, makes it slower, so you need so use more powerfull engines to move the ship.
Beam cannons use a helluvalot of power and produce heat - requireing a powerful reactor and cooling systems - and as modern science will tell you - bigger ships can mount bigger reacotrs and bigger ship = bigger surface area for cooling, more room for stuff like armor and weapons.

In that respect the Lilith makes no sense, but then again, neither does the Lucifer. In FS1 it has Flux cannons (3 salvos needed to kill the Galatea) and in FS2 is has..what? SRed? LRed?
Different firepower (not that it appeared in the game) But it just goes to show you that [V] didn't spend much time worrying over continuity or balance (missing nodes, different nodemaps?)

[AlphaOne]

Hey hold on ww2 era battleships had to my knoledge wooden deck's . Is that correct?

A missile coming on a descending angle would go down and through the bottom of the ship. Also moder day torpedoes that incedently can be fired form destroyers are a hell of a lot more powerfull .

I do remember the fact that ww2 era battleships have this insane thick armour belt around them for taking kinetic dammage from shells. However arent the missiles designed to burn through that armor belt?

I saw this demonstration once somewhere and it was said that some missile had the abilaty to burn thourgh almost 2 m of reinforced steel . They might have exagerated perhaps.

But if they were noit wouldnt that mean BS would get toasted? Well not at first anyway but hell since the BS with its limited main guns wont be able to shoot back at the destroyer the destroyer can just smash the BS to pieces. Make a down angle trajectory on them missiles and the BS is burning faster then you can immagine.

Also the Lilith did not have the same amount of HP in fs1 as it does in FS2 !

[Droid803]

In that respect the Lilith makes no sense, but then again, neither does the Lucifer. In FS1 it has Flux cannons (3 salvos needed to kill the Galatea) and in FS2 is has..what? SRed? LRed?
Different firepower (not that it appeared in the game) But it just goes to show you that [V] didn't spend much time worrying over continuity or balance (missing nodes, different nodemaps?)

The Lucifer isn't even used in FS2, except as a tech room entry... However, the Lilith is.

[Nuclear1]

Trash if you can point out where a cruiser, no matter how small or fast,  "evades" a beam in FS2, then I'll be impressed. I've seen instances get grazed by a beam and pull away, but they never, ever evade a beam that is fired at them.

Seriously, back up your arguments with evidence and concrete examples, not blanket statements and you'll do a whole lot better.

[Mars]

Hey hold on ww2 era battleships had to my knoledge wooden deck's . Is that correct?

Not usually, typically their decks were made of armor type steel. Even the fairly aged Queen Elizabeth class battleship had a steel hull.

Battleships have more firepower, but a modern destroyer will be able to use what firepower it has extremely accurately.

Also the Lilith did not have the same amount of HP in fs1 as it does in FS2 !

Are you sure about that? Seems to me it has 75000 in both games.

[TrashMan]

I've seen beams miss a cruiser completely, especially if it's turning. More comonly it either hits it or the cruiser gets grazed, but we are talking about beam weapons, which are practicely insta-hit, now normal cannon shells.

[Droid803]

I've seen direct-fire beams miss the Colossus (!) with frightening regularity, so its very possible to miss a cruiser.

Slash beams are actually more accurate (they will slash across the target, and may only connect for a very short time, but they almost always at least slash across a small fraction of the hull).

[blowfish]

I've seen slash beams miss entirely, more often than direct-fire beams miss entirely (except Mjolnirs).

[Mars]

AFAIK missing beams in FS2 has nothing to do with size or distance.

[AlphaOne]

Hmm interesting i cant remember which country used wooden deck's on its battleships but i do now they got a huge shock when they were sunk.

 Also Beam do tend to miss. I could not believe it myself but they do miss so bad at times its horrible.

I Believe it was in the VWatch archives or something that i read the specs of the Lilith a couple of days ago and it clearely stated that the Lilith's armour was not the same in FS1 as it was in FS2 . Hol on il do a check to see .


Edit: My bad the lilith appears to have the same HP in both FS1 and FS2 the only difference i could find was the weapons in FS1 the huge armor was balanced by weapons in FS 2 it has speed armor and firepower.(which is unheard of for any shivan or GTVA warship)