Author Topic: Lilith  (Read 84836 times)

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That one mission in Blue Planet where you had to scramble around disabling the two Ravanas, one Moloch, and two Liliths was a nightmare. Mostly because of the Liliths.

It's weird how a cruiser can seem more deadly than a destroyer, if only because its anti-fighter weapons cover a greater relative percentage of its surface area.

      No, the Lilith is a nightmare because its LRed can actually take a beating. Unlike the Ravana's which can be relatively quickly killed with even conventional armament (and by conventional I mean non-Trebs or bombs).

More to the point, what are the anti-Lilith people hoping to accomplish? Wide ranging consensus that the Lilith is a silly ship that will mean absolutely nothing because everyone will continue using it because its canon? So, even if you "win", it's utterly meaningless.

. I just don't understand it.

       I think part of the problem is that in many user made campaigns the Lilith is no longer rare. Because people tend to over-use it. And then people forget what the original campaign is all about, they just keep seeing this smae ship beating the crap out of everything they've got. It's like in the favourite faction thread, someone said they like the GTVA because "in blue planet, they were really cool". Well Blue Planet isn't canon, and arguably in many ways they GTVA doesn't behave like the GTVA of FS2. But people take 3rd party missions as the norm whether deliberately or not.

        But yeah, Lilith rocks.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Offline Aardwolf

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I just read the entire thread.

*dies*

But seriously, I'll say something meaningful. I'd appreciate it if you'd not begin to reply to it before you've read it all.




The "How I would have made it if I were making it" credo: :v: shouldn't have made it as powerful as it is. But they did.

The "It's just a game" argument: a casual player (one who doesn't check the stats and is just playing it to enjoy it) can still enjoy a fight with a Lilith. It works in the main FreeSpace 2 campaign, because the player can disable its main gun, and it works in FreeSpace 1 just fine.

In response to the "realism/economic factors" debate: although other ships in FreeSpace 2 of similar size have nowhere near the firepower of the Lilith, that doesn't mean that it's impossible or even hard to do so. The question you have to ask, though, is under what conditions to do so. While we don't know what sort of economy, if any, the Shivans had, it still takes energy and time to do work. There may be no monetary cost, but there is still an energy/time/material cost. If HP costs some amount of these things, and firepower per unit time does as well, (and probably some other things), then it should cost more energy/time/material to build it. The Shivans have already decided to build a fleet with many distinct types of ship. The Lilith would have to have a specific role.

Musings, you may stop reading if you wish:

Possible roles for the Lilith: Since it's so high a priority for fighter pilots and so easy to disarm, the Lilith doesn't have long to get in and do its job. It probably would be most useful in large-scale battles, where they are smaller and (maybe?) less deadly than the destroyers, and have better survivability than Cains or Rakshasas. Even so, if the force engaging the Shivans has any sensible commander or wing leaders, its main turret would get taken out quickly, and it would sit powerlessly while the rest of the fleet engaged the Shivans' destroyers, corvettes, and whatnot. The trick, then, is to do the damage without being singled out. Once the pilots make the distinction, the Lilith loses its value.

In that sense, it would have been better just to make the Lilith a more heavily armored cruiser than the Cain, but with Aeolus-like anti-fighter defenses. That way, if used in combination with a Cain, its opponents would have to devote fighters to the potentially suicidal role of taking out the "Lilith"'s turrets, or sortie one or more additional warships to engage the Cain. If they choose to spend their time attacking the Lilith first, the Lilith might go down, but the Cain could still finish its work and depart. If they send in another warship, the Cain and/or Lilith might be destroyed, but the area that warship left from would have less protection.

/musings

 

Offline Droid803

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In that sense, it would have been better just to make the Lilith a more heavily armored cruiser than the Cain, but with Aeolus-like anti-fighter defenses. That way, if used in combination with a Cain, its opponents would have to devote fighters to the potentially suicidal role of taking out the "Lilith"'s turrets, or sortie one or more additional warships to engage the Cain. If they choose to spend their time attacking the Lilith first, the Lilith might go down, but the Cain could still finish its work and depart. If they send in another warship, the Cain and/or Lilith might be destroyed, but the area that warship left from would have less protection.

Hmmm...like the SC Lamia? So suicidal to attack one of those.  :shaking:
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 
In that sense, it would have been better just to make the Lilith a more heavily armored cruiser than the Cain, but with Aeolus-like anti-fighter defenses. That way, if used in combination with a Cain, its opponents would have to devote fighters to the potentially suicidal role of taking out the "Lilith"'s turrets, or sortie one or more additional warships to engage the Cain. If they choose to spend their time attacking the Lilith first, the Lilith might go down, but the Cain could still finish its work and depart. If they send in another warship, the Cain and/or Lilith might be destroyed, but the area that warship left from would have less protection.

        Perhaps, but I detect a clear trend in FS2 by Volition to give the Shivans relatively weak anti-fighter defences. There's basically not one ship that's particularly scary on the Shivan side of things. The Moloch is annoying because of its flak and clusterbabies but it has not AAAf, all the other cruisers have only a single AAAf. And the Destroyers, well their stuff is so spread to hell and back.
        [Volition did something clever imo, by making Shivan fighters difficult opponents for the player (strong shields vs Player) but vulnerable to ships (weak hull vs AAAf) to make allied ships useful. While enemy cruisers are difficult opponents for the allied ships (better beams), but weaker vs the player (weak AF capabilities) making them player useful there. So the player can help his ships, but he also can get help from them in a big way too.]

        Just as in FS1, often the more lethal missions are against rebel forces because Terran and Vasudan ships have much superior anti-fighter capabilities.

        I know a lot of 3rd party ships address these problems, but whether they're "filling a gap" in Shivan forces, or simply ignoring the trend laid down by Volition is up for debate.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 01:30:48 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline bfobar

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So one day I got bored and started a steel cage death match between the capital ships. I was figuring to use the data for play balancing anything I fredded, you know, picking the right spread of cruisers to just die vs a destroyer if alpha 1 doesn't do the mission right.



All tests involve starting the ships outside of beam range and traveling towards eachother, turning beams on, and closing to about 1k in a good firing arangement for their main batteries. (No I'm not putting sobeks up against the back side of a ravana. that's just not fair or true to the death match ideal.) I ran the battles until 1 ship was destroyed and then recorded the time and hull % of the winner. If the battle seemed weird, I tried a few different angles until I saw a consistent pattern and let that stand. (i.e. The Deimos does a fantastic job of shooting turrents off of superior ships and winning when they can't shoot back. It suprised me.) All ships have stock configuration.

Anyway here is the data from the SC Lilith:

-----SC Lilith WINS------
GTC Fenris                   100%   0:05
GTC Leviathan   96%   0:24
GTC Aeolus   93%   0:23
GVC Aten                   100%   0:31
GVC Mentu                   100%   0:39
SC Cain      95%   0:10
SC Raksasha   81%   0:42
SC Lillith                   6%   0:47
GVCv Sobek   99%   1:06
SCv Moloch   89%   1:04
GTD Hecate   21%   1:02
GVD Typhon   12%   1:30

So the Lilith spanks all other cruisers. The double beams of the aeolus are the only things that can scratch the paint before it blows up. The Lilith is actually slightly superior to the Hecate and Typhon destroyers, mano e mano.

----- SC Lilith LOSES -----
GTCv Deimos   16%   5:33
GTD Orion                   12%   1:00
GVD Hapshetsut   83%   0:52
SD Demon                   56%   0:49
SD Ravana                   100%   0:22
NTFr Iceni                   27%   0:54
GTSD Hades   100%   0:49
SSD Lucifer   92%   0:38
GTVA Colossus   90%   1:18
SJ Sathanas   98%   0:07

The Deimos and Icini are the only sub-destroyer size ships that can stand a chance, and a lilith hurts them. Most of the victor ships have several beam banks and are able to shoot the beam off the front of the shivan ship consistantly. (It's a big target really). The Deimos can bring 3 beams to bear on a ship if it approaches at an angle, making it superior to the sobek in battle in many cases.

Here are my notes on the battles for your amusement:
The SC Cain (and lilith) usually looses its forward beam canon in the first 2 volleys, and then is effectively defenseless.
The Aten and Mentu lack heavy beam cannons and have much better survivability if they can flank and get out of the firing arc of a cruiser with their superior speed.
The Mentu seems to lack the ability to shoot straight ahead.
All Matches involving the Mentu changed from waypoint travel to ship attack orders.
All Matches vs. cruiser class ships are performed head on.
The GTCv Deimos and GVD Hapshetsut could consistantly destroy the SC Lillith's main turret.
The GTSD Hades has bizzarre firing arcs and only likes to shoot things straight above it.
The SSD Lucifer was granted Lred beams in the arms because their damage output is much closer to the FS1 shivan superlaser.
The GTVA Colossus suffers from drunken gunners on its slash beam turrets.
The Deimos excels at destroying turrets.

The key to fighting a lilith is to target the beam cannon. Every ship that consistently hits the beam cannon on its first or second shot wins. Amusingly, the lilith can blow up a fenris faster than the sathanas can blow up a lilith.

My conclusion is that the lilith is completely overpowered unless you consider the ship as being very expenisve and stripped of everything not relating to guns or armor. This ship really is a flying beam turret and the shivan crew probably has to sleep at their stations and eats cold food from sacks, if the ship has enough fuel to run through lunch time that is. The entire thing must be devoted to the beam. (logically, not canonically of course)

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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As I said before, the Lilith makes a good plot point in stories and campaigns.
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Offline bfobar

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As I said before, the Lilith makes a good plot point in stories and campaigns.

Well, so does the violition bravos ship. That doesn't really say anything.

 
So how did a Levy take down a lilith? lucky turret hit?

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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It parked itself above and behind the Lilith?
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Offline Al Tarket

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the Lilith's beam can rotate 360 degress on the lower half of the ship which means even if you where behind it, it can still shoot you down, the best place is above the ship or above the thrusters near the engine if you were a capital ship trying to destroy a lilith.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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the Lilith's beam can rotate 360 degress on the lower half of the ship which means even if you where behind it, it can still shoot you down, the best place is above the ship or above the thrusters near the engine if you were a capital ship trying to destroy a lilith.

What I said. :yes:

Actually, that would also be a very good spot for bombers to launch their ordnance, since the SAAA can't hit them there either.
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Offline eliex

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If I could, I'd make the Lilith the speed of a Leviathan so I could increase the power of the LRed,  (an uber-LRed) - not that it needs it anyway!
Just use it like in campaigns like a long-range beam cannon.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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If I could, I'd make the Lilith the speed of a Leviathan so I could increase the power of the LRed,  (an uber-LRed) - not that it needs it anyway!
Just use it like in campaigns like a long-range beam cannon.

The BFRed is what you're looking at, I think. Go to FRED2 and change the Lilith's LRed to BFRed, and you're done.
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Offline Al Tarket

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no androgeos what i mean is, you said that your behind it and didnt say anymore i was trying to make sure people dont take your advice as seriously as that, so no one has to sit behind it and be killed for not known where bhind it :D. however your right with the above part.

i sound like caboose :lol:. sorry androgeos.
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I also tested the Lilith vs Aeolus (probably inspired by this thread's previous life), and the Aeolus's 2 beams had about a 30-40% chance of killing the LRed. After that, either the Lilith was lucky enough to disarm the A's turrets that were facing it, or it got flaked to death pretty quickly. If the LRed survived, the Aeolus was doomed in seconds, unless the ships were close enough to orbit each other, where the LRed would merely scratch the A and send most energy to outer space, because the A moved out of the beam (and it's narrow mid section seems to help with that).
Anyways, the Lilith lost like 1 fight out of 4 or 5.

And if we added a wing of strike craft to both sides (cruiser vs cruiser 1 on 1 fights are rather rare), the Shivan Seige Gun is doomed, and the Shivan strike team dies a painfull death in a fireworks show made by friendly Flak.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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I also tested the Lilith vs Aeolus (probably inspired by this thread's previous life), and the Aeolus's 2 beams had about a 30-40% chance of killing the LRed. After that, either the Lilith was lucky enough to disarm the A's turrets that were facing it, or it got flaked to death pretty quickly. If the LRed survived, the Aeolus was doomed in seconds, unless the ships were close enough to orbit each other, where the LRed would merely scratch the A and send most energy to outer space, because the A moved out of the beam (and it's narrow mid section seems to help with that).
Anyways, the Lilith lost like 1 fight out of 4 or 5.

And if we added a wing of strike craft to both sides (cruiser vs cruiser 1 on 1 fights are rather rare), the Shivan Seige Gun is doomed, and the Shivan strike team dies a painfull death in a fireworks show made by friendly Flak.


Well, the Aeolus IS quite nimble. Pity GTVA only made twenty-four of them, and out of the twenty-four...
* Androgeos Exeunt pauses to note the destruction of the Adamant, Malta, Ertanax, Templar, Alba (?), Loyola, and Pax (?).

...seven of them are gone.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Alba was a Levi, Pax was a Deimos.

Liberty, Camisard, Hellespont, and Mylae were all destroyed, so make that 10.
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Offline Stormkeeper

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Shivan Siege Gun.

Nice nick name for the Lilith. It fits, too.
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Offline Al Tarket

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siege gun? the only thing close to that is somtaaws salvaged betusi altered beast destroyer cannon :P.

more like a mobile death box with antennae.
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