Author Topic: New User Friendliness  (Read 29599 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: New User Friendliness
I tend to agree with that. :yes:

But I'd go further and suggest that we have a "Released Project Downloads" bar at the top with links to Turey's installer and all the released TCs. Sort of like the highlights but more permanent.

Personally, all I think we really need is a bigger link to Kara's Freespace FAQ. I might even go as far to ask Kara if he could to integrate the FAQ into HLP (well maybe not totally, but perhaps go further into detail about each community). Not too much sense in having all of this redundant information floating around.

I remember I learned all about FS from Kara's FS FAQ, or at least when I remembered how to spell "karajorma". Kara's FAQ is an excellent site for newbies to FS, there's no sense in making another HLP-specific one. That's the main reason why I think we should either ask Kara to further connect his FAQ to us, or to make another huge link to his FAQ here and make an HLP history page.

I've already said that anyone who wants to is welcome to port the entire FAQ to the wiki or anywhere else it would be suitably maintained. If it's somewhere I can access it I'll even update it from time to time myself. :)
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline jr2

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Re: New User Friendliness
I've already said that anyone who wants to is welcome to port the entire FAQ to the wiki or anywhere else it would be suitably maintained. If it's somewhere I can access it I'll even update it from time to time myself. :)

....I started to.  Someone care to light a fire under my butt so I can finish it?  :nervous:

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: New User Friendliness
I've already said that anyone who wants to is welcome to port the entire FAQ to the wiki or anywhere else it would be suitably maintained. If it's somewhere I can access it I'll even update it from time to time myself. :)

....I started to.  Someone care to light a fire under my butt so I can finish it?  :nervous:
*lights fire under your butt*
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: New User Friendliness
We already have the FreeSpace Wiki, which is nearly equivalent to the Karajorma FAQ, and even superior to it in some areas.  And that's linked up at the top in the navbar.  In fact...

...there we go.  Now Turey's installer is linked in the top bar as well.

 

Offline Turey

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Re: New User Friendliness
...there we go.  Now Turey's installer is linked in the top bar as well.

This really surprised me when I saw it. I was going for the wiki link and "Holy Sh-!"

I must say it's a good idea though.
Creator of the FreeSpace Open Installer.
"Calm. The ****. Down." -Taristin
why would an SCP error be considered as news? :wtf: *smacks Cobra*It's a feature.

 

Offline colecampbell666

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Re: New User Friendliness
Ya.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: New User Friendliness
Sorry, thesizzler, but I've helped more than a dozen newbs get FSOpen from this site.

Many of them were experienced gamers and expert computer users. Not one managed to find Turey's Installer or Kara's FAQ on his/her own before expressing at least some degree of frustration. All of them needed directions from me. The layout here is, as they've said: 'disorienting', 'awful', 'totally disorganized.' It 'fails every test of user-friendliness I can imagine.' One girl asked 'Are they trying to screen me out of their userbase?'

There really needs to be a large link to Turey's Installer right at the top of the front page. No menus, no list of options, just one reliable source.

I can't really argue with that, I guess; you're right.

TBH, though, I just can't fathom how people are confused by the layout of this site. I mean, if newbs are all confused and running into walls around the place and they're intelligent people, it's obvious we have a problem, but... I just don't see how it's confusing. I was never really all that confused with what went where when I was newb. :nervous:


If we are going to do something, I'd suggest doing something with that top bar with the links. Right now, that bar is a really tiny thing and kinda hard to notice. I'd say change that to a side bar on the main page with a small description under every link. I'd be willing to try and dissect Kara's faq and transport/transform it into a newb faq on the wiki, but the admins would also need to make it very clear that there's a good source of information there. And by very clear, I don't mean just a stickied thread or highlight, perhaps a specific pointer on the wiki description on the afore mentioned sidebar.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: New User Friendliness
I agree. It's hard to fathom how it's confusing -- but I think part of it might be that people just have little patience for doing things that they want to be very easy and straightforward.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: New User Friendliness
The fact that THIS isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: New User Friendliness
The fact that THIS isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.

That is a walkthrough for an installer. Both on their own are great in their own right, but their purpose is generally to obviate the necessity of the other. In all honesty, we don't need that.

And BTW, I haven't seen an Open AL problem in a while. Well, I guess it's not like I've been looking.

 

Offline colecampbell666

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Re: New User Friendliness
There have been very few.

Turey's gone A and B the C of D and told people to download it in the Installer.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: New User Friendliness
The fact that THIS isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.

That is a walkthrough for an installer. Both on their own are great in their own right, but their purpose is generally to obviate the necessity of the other. In all honesty, we don't need that.

And BTW, I haven't seen an Open AL problem in a while. Well, I guess it's not like I've been looking.
I've actually tried to get people I know to get FSO, and they've ALL given up because they couldn't get it to run. I pointed them to Open AL and they refused to DL it because they think I'm ****ting them or something, in addition to being pissed that they "wasted" 6 hours downloading it.
If I could point them to something that tells them clear as day, since whenever I explain it on MSN, they think its like way to complicated, even with the installer. If only had I pointed that thread to them, that wouldn't have happened...

I don't see how a walkthrough for the installer (which doesn't handle absolutely everything) should not exist. It'd sure help in explaining what everything is.
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: New User Friendliness
All I do is make them plug in their hard drive, and i transfer it over, along with the openAL installer.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: New User Friendliness
The fact that THIS isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.

That is a walkthrough for an installer. Both on their own are great in their own right, but their purpose is generally to obviate the necessity of the other. In all honesty, we don't need that.

And BTW, I haven't seen an Open AL problem in a while. Well, I guess it's not like I've been looking.
I've actually tried to get people I know to get FSO, and they've ALL given up because they couldn't get it to run. I pointed them to Open AL and they refused to DL it because they think I'm ****ting them or something, in addition to being pissed that they "wasted" 6 hours downloading it.
If I could point them to something that tells them clear as day, since whenever I explain it on MSN, they think its like way to complicated, even with the installer. If only had I pointed that thread to them, that wouldn't have happened...

I don't see how a walkthrough for the installer (which doesn't handle absolutely everything) should not exist. It'd sure help in explaining what everything is.

If they had followed the directions in the installer, then it's not complicated. What you're talking about with OAL is a failure of trust, not the installer being too complicated.

If people need a walkthrough for an installer, then - sorry turey - the installer needs to be re-made.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: New User Friendliness
Yea, but how many people actually read installers instead of clicking next-next-next-next-next...
The installer should detect if the comp has OAL and get it automatically (like modern games do with DirectX).
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: New User Friendliness
Yea, but how many people actually read installers instead of clicking next-next-next-next-next...

If they don't read the installers then **** them. If they're not willing to even try to understand on their own, then I'm not willing to help them.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: New User Friendliness
thesizzler, I think you're being a bit hasty.

I know I'm an intelligent person. I click-click-click like everyone else, because almost every installer I've used is designed to reward that process. I'm conditioned.

Streamlining Turey's Installer isn't that hard, and it'll pay off for a lot of people. If I hadn't spent hours on this forum, I'd have no idea what a lot of the items on the installer mean, even with the helpful tooltips.

Even though we're on the Internet, we should still try to be nice guys.

EDITED: to not call thesizzler a jerk. I'm sorry, that was too harsh.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 05:54:44 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: New User Friendliness
I think thesizzler's being perfectly reasonable, even if I wouldn't use that language.  We need a sign that says "you must be this intelligent to ride on HLP", or something.  Otherwise we end up with people like TrashMan.

More seriously, we're under no obligation to provide people with instant gratification on a silver platter.  We have an installer, and we have multiple FAQs.  And we have the forum itself.  Between those resources, and Google, the responsible forumite should be able to figure out whatever he needs to know.

I'm not adverse to answering people's questions, or making things user friendly.  There's a lot of common-sense solutions we could implement, like putting the installer on the top bar.  But I'm not in favor of hand-holding ad absurdum.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: New User Friendliness
Do we actually want people to play the game, though? I'm not willing to commit to reading several FAQs, searching google, and searching forums in order to be able to install one game. At that point, I'm going to decide that whoever is doing the game doesn't have their act together, and I'm not going to have anybody to play with. If I don't quit, I'm going to seriously question if I want to spend that much time on it - unless it has something I really want, I'm not going to keep on going.

Yeah, it's selfish, but I've learned that as a rule of thumb it's correct (mostly from experience with Linux). Something that's well-polished, that won't cause trouble for its users, has an easy-to-use install process. Something that isn't has you do anything from a generic installer with glaring faults to build the whole program, and then have a half-dozen config files you need to modify afterwards, and then it crashes all the time and has allergies to something else on the system, etc etc.

Most people don't even have that experience, and so they're not even going to be able to get past things not working in an extremely straightforward manner. If they're a gamer, they're not necessarily a programmer or even a very good computer user. The point of the installer is to get an audience for the people that are not going to need the hand-holding, and maybe rope in a few people who get interested enough to take a few steps on their own.

I would say (off-the-cuff) that the installer shouldn't need to take anything more than a little bit of hardware advice and it should be able to install Freespace 2. Just click-click-click. The default directory can be set to C:\Program Files\Freespace2, like everything else, or (probably better) it can default to the directory pointed to by the FS2 uninstall string in the registry, if it exists. The default installed items can be FS2_Open, FRED, Launcher, MediaVPs, and maybe Derelict or something else that's good and doesn't cause a lot of extra download time.

The technology is there to do all this autodetection better than most users are capable of. The point of writing an installer is to make things easier for people, not to serve as some screener for people to join our boys-only club.

Now once somebody gets on the forums and starts whining about modding tables, then they get sent to the FAQs.

It would be nice to have some more passionate creative types around here, but nobody's going to commit to a game with a development team that intentionally goes out of its way to exclude certain types of people from ever playing it, especially as niche a game as Freespace 2, because there's no gain in it for them. They might as well go and make a mod for Half Life 2, even if they have to do extra work to get a Freespace environment, Valve will be sure to ensure that it's as easy as possible to get things running, and they'll have a massive number of people who are guaranteed to already have the game to play their mod.

So in summary, bigger audience => more incentive to invest time/effort => more intelligent/committed people.

Compare the influx of coders/scripters prior to the installer and the big TCs to the period of time where the big TCs and installer made releases. You had to be a genius prior to that to figure out how to install things, or spend several hours on it, and we didn't get very many new people with skills at all. Now, we've got at least 5 coders who have contributed something through BtRL, and at least one scripter who claims there isn't enough for him to keep busy.

EDIT: That turned out into a little more of a soapbox than I intended.
-C

 
Re: New User Friendliness
Seconded. I too think we need more experienced coders etc (perhaps we can finally get ST:R then).

Turey's installer should indeed be a bit more streamlined (perhaps it should install OpenAL as well?) For example, for me, it took me several hours to download everything and then I noticed it didn't work. I only got FSO running a year after :mad2: