Author Topic: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border  (Read 10841 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BloodEagle

  • 210
  • Bleeding Paradox!
    • Steam
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I think it's not about Georgia - not about its territory. There is one serious reason - all South Ossetians have Russian citizenship and RF passports. So, just try to listen our opinion, i know all this materials on russian language but if you want have full vision of the situation, you must translate this: http://lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/08/ossetia/ or read here: http://www.rbc.ru/ or just here: http://www.1tv.ru Anyway, the first Georgian military strike was against civilians, which have Russian citizenship. Personally, I've lost two of my friends there.
You're right, Russia has a right to defend its citizens.

Keyword:  defend.  The moment the Russians deployed an air force, it became a war for Russia to expand its reach.  With very, very few exceptions, air power is purely an offensive weapon.  There's no purpose served in bombing cities, apartment complexes, and Tblisi International Airport, other than to break Georgia's will to fight.  Russia has the ground force capability to defend South Ossetia, which is all they need to do.

The Battle of Britain.

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Hence "very, very few exceptions," though in retrospect "primarily" would fit better than "purely".
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 08:09:24 pm by nuclear1 »
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Good old Russia is back on track.

Quote
If Russia were to preserve South Ossetia's independence in a way which didn't involve indiscriminately bombing Georgian civilians without reason and blatantly ignoring basic rules of armed combat, then I doubt the world would disapprove as much.

You know, I could replace Russia with another superpower and Georgia with a certain country located in Middle East in that quote. But it doesn't really matter. Human rights are Western invention and are related to living standard. Besides, I think Rules of armed combat is an oxymoron in itself.

Plus I'd bet Western military companies would be happy to sell all kinds of Stingers and RPGs to Georgia now to get the field testing done.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
True, though I disagree that Human Rights are a Western Invention, since many Eastern races had similar doctrines centuries before we did (though much like modern interpretation, the definition of 'human' seemed to change as needed), and even back then, they realised that two wrongs do not make a right.

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I wrote this for Darkscribes.org, so beware, there's nasty language ahead.

Here's the basics:

Once there was a country called Georgia.

In the last 1000 years they were the *****es of each and every top dog - Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, Soviet Empire. Even after the great crash they were so-so, since their MP was an old buddy of those same Soviet guys who ran the country for the last 50 years. It was not until a guy called Mikheil Saakashvili decided that a fashion remake was in order: a nationalistic. He ousted the old guys and declared independance.

OK.

There was also a country called Osetia.

Unlike the Georgians they bet on the wining horse: the bolsheviks, while the Georgians threw their lot in with the menseviks...um bummer. Even though Georgia gave such prominent people to the USSR as Joseph Stalin, and Beriya in the long run they were always ****ed by big brother...they weren't trustworthy enough.

Even after the "voluntary" join into the USSR and after the Soviet Crash as well, Osetia remained de-facto independent in the form of the autonomic territory South Osetia as a part of Georgia, and the autonomic territory of North Ossetia as a part of the Russian Federation.

...and then there was an independent South Osetia

When the South Osetians declared independence, they chased out about 30 000 Georgians from the country. The Georgians returned the favor and chased out 80 000 Osetians from Georgia....and of course there was ethnic clensing, rape-rape-rape, kicking babies out of the other's women....the usual stuff, business as usual in these parts.

Then the Russians came in, they stationed troops in South Osetia and put and end to the whole war business. Can you believe that? Big-bad, red Russians, putting and end to a slaughterhouse and bringing peace? Well, yeah, I can believe it fine.

They did it cause having a puffer nation next to Vili's America-Pro turd of a country would come handy. However they were clever about it: they never accepted the existence of South Osetia as an independent country. They merely sent peace keeping forces to the autonomic area of South Osetia to put and end to the ethnic clensing, as well as to protect the Russian minority living in the area.

...and then there was a bunch of others

There's another country called Abhazia, but they're so chummy with the Russians - and have the balls to back it up - that the idea of "integration" never crossed Vili's mind.

However there's a third country Adjara that was also an autonomic region Georgia. For some reason when Vili came to power he reintegrated it into Georgia...and the Adjaranians didn't give a damn.

What the ****'s actually going on now

On the other hand, the Osetians do give: beyond flying the Georgian flag, Vili wants them to give up their two national sports: Black marketing and smuggling....oh and paying taxes. A big no-no.

Vili thought that if it worked once, it should work twice. He ordered the Georgian troops to finally make those Osetian smugglers pay their due. He thought that the Russian peace keepers will get the **** out of the way in as gentlemenly a fashion as possible...

...after all that's what (UN=NATO) peace keepers always do when the going gets tough.

Fat chance. Within an couple of hours 150 Russian tanks crossed the Russian South Osetian border. ****! This didn't go over as planned. But he can't pull out, or they'd call him a soft dicked pussy...so hmm...time to call in those 'mericans, see if they're as good as their word (Bush is very chummy with Vili).

What this is REALLY about

Actually this whole affair isn't about Osetia. It's about Russia demonstrating that Uncle Sam can't do as he pleases in the Russian's Bear turf: yep, Putin and company want to demonstrate that the Caucasus is still their turf, their neighborhood and you can't do **** without asking them first.

It's unlikely that Russia will go to war over the smugglers....but if they pull out of the area, Uncle Sam and the whole NATO will owe them one.



Another thing:
In Western Media, anything that lessens Russian Influence (Independence of Kosovo) = GOOD! Yay!
In Western Media, anything that acknowledges Russian Influence (Independence of Osetia) = BAD! BOO!



As for the nasty way how Russia wages war: WAKE the **** UP! It's war. People are gone die, civvies included. The western media paints the best biased picture it can, since that's what it's payed to do. It's in America's interest to paint the Russians as the devils and turn international public opinion against them.

What the Russians do in South Osetia is no better or worse than whatever America does in...hmm...actually it IS better. They've come to the defense of an area that was invaded by another. They've been stationing peace keepers in South Osetia for years and those troops and the Russian minority as well were ATTACKED BY GEORGIAN troops.

If Georgia can't take the heat he shouldn't have play hard ball in the first place....

...but as I wrote above, it won't come to that. Russia will eventually pull out, and Uncle Sam and NATO will owe them one.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 05:59:30 pm by Flaser »
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Daeron

  • 25
  • The guy playing with a mouse
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Thank god for a decent post that paints an objective picture. Thumbs up, Flaser. I do think it's worrisome how the supposed occurance of genocide is currently being handled in the media. It's a word which shouldn't be used so hastily, but it seems to have become a playball for politicians on both sides.
Yarrrr! there be ony two ranks of leader amongst us pirates! Captain and if your really notorious then it’s Cap’n!

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
You know, I could replace Russia with another superpower and Georgia with a certain country located in Middle East in that quote. But it doesn't really matter. Human rights are Western invention and are related to living standard. Besides, I think Rules of armed combat is an oxymoron in itself.
If you're trying to say I'm pointing the finger at Russia for Georgia, but not at the US for Iraq, then you're wrong.

Quote
As for the nasty way how Russia wages war: WAKE the **** UP! It's war. People are gone die, civvies included. The western media paints the best biased picture it can, since that's what it's payed to do. It's in America's interest to paint the Russians as the devils and turn international public opinion against them.

What the Russians do in South Osetia is no better or worse than whatever America does in...hmm...actually it IS better. They've come to the defense of an area that was invaded by another. They've been stationing peace keepers in South Osetia for years and those troops and the Russian minority as well were ATTACKED BY GEORGIAN troops.
I understand civilians die in war.  It happens.

I said before, Russia has every right to defend South Ossetia.  What it doesn't have the right to do is bomb apartment buildings and airports of an enemy that has clearly fled with its tail between its legs and is now offering a chance for a cease-fire, or ignite a second front in Abkhazia.  If people plan to point the finger at the US for its military action resulting in sectarian warfare and collateral damage in Iraq, then Russia needs to be to be blamed for doing whats its doing to Georgia.

If you're trying to paint the Russians as the "heroes" here by saying they were awesome in the past, it won't work.  The fact they're bombing Georgian civilians in the first place and clearing not backing down even when given the chance to makes them just as guilty as Georgia for invading South Ossetia.

Russia needs to pay for what its done to Tblisi and the other Georgian cities its attacked since this has started just as much as Georgia needs to pay for what they did to Tskhinvali.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 05:47:31 pm by nuclear1 »
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Something else: A Hungarian guy put together this map, I've hastily put English tags on it.

"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Admittedly, it's pretty reasonable on here, but it's amazing how fast some people have leapt from the Right to condemn America to the Right to emulate what they are condemning because 'America did it.'.

I had a very strong feeling it was mostly political anyway, Georgia have made no secrets of their ties to the US, and Russia are, from all reports, quite brazenly marching further into Georgia, across 2 borders now.

The situation bears some likeness to the situation in Korea about 40 years ago, with China resisting the formation of an American sphere of influence on their borders, I only hope the outcome is not the same.

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
You know, I could replace Russia with another superpower and Georgia with a certain country located in Middle East in that quote. But it doesn't really matter. Human rights are Western invention and are related to living standard. Besides, I think Rules of armed combat is an oxymoron in itself.
If you're trying to say I'm pointing the finger at Russia for Georgia, but not at the US for Iraq, then you're wrong.

Quote
As for the nasty way how Russia wages war: WAKE the **** UP! It's war. People are gone die, civvies included. The western media paints the best biased picture it can, since that's what it's payed to do. It's in America's interest to paint the Russians as the devils and turn international public opinion against them.

What the Russians do in South Osetia is no better or worse than whatever America does in...hmm...actually it IS better. They've come to the defense of an area that was invaded by another. They've been stationing peace keepers in South Osetia for years and those troops and the Russian minority as well were ATTACKED BY GEORGIAN troops.
I understand civilians die in war.  It happens.

I said before, Russia has every right to defend South Ossetia.  What it doesn't have the right to do is bomb apartment buildings and airports of an enemy that has clearly fled with its tail between its legs and is now offering a chance for a cease-fire, or ignite a second front in Abkhazia.  If people plan to point the finger at the US for its military action resulting in sectarian warfare and collateral damage in Iraq, then Russia needs to be to be blamed for doing whats its doing to Georgia.

If you're trying to paint the Russians as the "heroes" here by saying they were awesome in the past, it won't work.  The fact they're bombing Georgian civilians in the first place and clearing not backing down even when given the chance to makes them just as guilty as Georgia for invading South Ossetia.

Russia needs to pay for what its done to Tblisi and the other Georgian cities its attacked since this has started just as much as Georgia needs to pay for what they did to Tskhinvali.

You know Russia really has to pay for what they've done to Hungary during the last 50 years....no, now thatI think about it the Allies should also pay for having bombed our cities to dust....no, now that I think about it, it should be the English and Spanish who should pay for what they've done to America...or what the USA's done to the Indians or Mexico...

...the list goes on.

I think instead anyone paying for anything, we should grow the **** up and realize that the world doesn't work like a fairytale with bad guys, good guys and explosions.

War happens, people kill each other for really outré or understandable reasons, and it will keep happening unless we do something about those reasons.
Trying to enforce a morality or joining a fray with this morality on this shield won't achieve peace - it will merely be a good propaganda back home while your troops will enforce the objectives their generals set them.

I don't think the Russians are heroes - they're a superpower who does its own bidding. Sometimes it's good for the people involved, sometimes it's not. The same is true for the USA, but they have to keep shoving down my  throat their slapstick, simplistic propaganda that I should be thankful, for they're doing the "right" thing, whether it's good for me or not.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I don't think the Russians are heroes - they're a superpower who does its own bidding. Sometimes it's good for the people involved, sometimes it's not.

And right now is an example of how Russia is turning what ending up being good for one group into bad for just about everybody involved.  It needs to end.  Georgia's offering a cease-fire, and Russia needs to take it.

Note:  I'm still not saying this in Georgia's defense, but because it seems the most common sense thing to do at the moment.  The other options are just plain bleak:  either Russia keeps bombing defenseless Georgian cities after the Georgian has retreated and bring about more unnecessary destruction, or Russia simply has Abkhazia do the same thing.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 06:07:51 pm by nuclear1 »
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I've got to disagree with you at some level there I'm afraid Flaser, Russia are just as happily pretending they are there for Altruistic reasons, and yet some of their actions are obviously not being done with concern for Georgian citizens, who are just as un-involved as the Ossetarian ones that died.

Politics is the art of letting other people get your own way. It's like Chess, you can lose every pawn on the Board, but as long as the King and a couple of Nobles survive, you still stand a chance of winning the game.

Both American and Russia are pulling strings here, and both are working under the banner of 'The Greater Good', it's been a favourite rallying call of oppressors everywhere.

I'm reminded of a C.S.Lewis quote.

'Those who torment us for our own good are the worst of them all, for they torment us without end, and without a stain upon their conscience'.

  

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I think instead anyone paying for anything, we should grow the **** up and realize that the world doesn't work like a fairytale with bad guys, good guys and explosions.

War happens, people kill each other for really outré or understandable reasons, and it will keep happening unless we do something about those reasons.
Trying to enforce a morality or joining a fray with this morality on this shield won't achieve peace - it will merely be a good propaganda back home while your troops will enforce the objectives their generals set them.

You think we should give up, then, and abandon the Hague and Geneva Conventions, perhaps use them as toilet paper. It's really rather pathetic to hold that belief in this day and age, but never mind that.

You brought up WW2. Okay, fine. I'll play ball. The destruction of cities you were so quick to bleat about makes an excellent case in point; the actions taken then by the Western nations so shocked and horrified them that they have never come remotely close to duplicating them. Delibrate bombing of a civilian target is pretty much unthinkable to the Western military mind because it is unthinkable to the population at large. If you want to be more cold-blooded about it, there are reams of statistics and evidence that the Blitz, Bomber Command's night area bombing campaigns, the USAF's area bombing campaign against Japanese cities in 1944-1945, or even the Zepplin raids against British cities in WWI, accomplished absolutely nothing of value. The only "area" attacks, which in the end is a polite way of saying they were aiming for standing buildings, that accomplished anything meaningful was the use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Going nuclear is not and hopefully never will be a viable option again. Back in 1864 and 1865 when Sherman marched to the sea and tore the place up as he went, then it had a purpose of sorts because there was so very little infrastructure to begin with. In the end it was counterproductive though; even a hundred and forty years later, long after all the physical evidence of what Sherman did is gone, that wound has not completely healed. And even Sherman knew better than to delibrately attack purely civilian targets; no one ever made a directed terror campaign against the people. Today, what the March to the Sea did could not be accomplished again. We have come too far and tasks that could only be accomplished with specialized facilites then, like casting rifle barrels or making bullets, can be done in your garage with ease today, without a lot of preparation. The targets that made the March to the Sea effective have become too many and too nebulous.

War is, in the end, a barbaric institution, and it always will be. To be cold-blooded again, it is also completely inevitable. We have fought since before we were even recognizeable as humans, and it took the atomic bomb and the threat of seeing your country vaporized in a series of white flashes to make the major powers of the world stop making war on each other directly. We will never stop fighting. This is reality.

Yet though we know war is barbaric, this is no reason to be barbaric in waging war. If we accept that it is inevitable, it is in our best interests not to be. Not only is it is demonstrably useless and purposeless to wage total war such as was done in WWII, but as you've already demonstrated for me simply by bringing all that up, the wounds run deep. Parts of Europe still remember rivalries and wrongs dating back to the Dark Ages strongly enough to use them as a pretext for violence, actions which almost certainly pale in comparison to anything done in the World Wars. By being brutal you set yourself up to reap the whirlwind at some later date; by being brutal you also make your task harder as more people will rise to oppose you. And while that was more of a laughing matter about a century ago, in today's world where firepower has become compacter and more mobile this is a big deal. Even a child can kill many today, given an AK-47 with a single clip.

Like every human political institution, the rules of war do not exist simply because they sound good. They were made because they serve a tangible purpose to both the victor and the vanquished: life will go on with as little disruption as possible. This is a worthy goal for many reasons, and most of them are really not altrustic at all. You can't tax the dead and they can't work for you, they just take up space and pose a health hazard. In Eastern Europe during the days of the USSR, the Russians could at least pretend they were putting down a rebellion, and by oversight of someone somewhere rebels against the established order have no rights. Here and now, they lack even that slender reed to support what they are doing.

"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Water

  • 210
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
You think we should give up, then, and abandon the Hague and Geneva Conventions, perhaps use them as toilet paper. It's really rather pathetic to hold that belief in this day and age, but never mind that.
I beleve the US has already done that with legal euphemisms.
Enhanced interrogation (torture)
Special renditions
Illegal combatants (anyone chosen not to get Geneva Conventions protections.)

For most countries it would be a stain on their reputation. For a country that boasts of freedom, human rights and democracy it is a huge loss to the world.
You brought up WW2. Okay, fine. I'll play ball. The destruction of cities you were so quick to bleat about makes an excellent case in point; the actions taken then by the Western nations so shocked and horrified them that they have never come remotely close to duplicating them. Delibrate bombing of a civilian target is pretty much unthinkable to the Western military mind because it is unthinkable to the population at large.
Fallujah


 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Ah, another lost soul, who's gripped with fear at the insignificance of his own existence. Western cultures are individualistic and we're old, really old compared to the third world. To us, death is the worst that could ever happen to us.

Well, guess what! To the rest of the world, which is really young (the majority of the population is >20), dieing is easy. Living day to day in slums, being disrespected, loosing face or being humiliated is a lot worse in their book. Death and especially death in combat is one of the most honorable things that could happen to you and an opponent who risks the same and may do it you is someone they respect.

...in other words they hate our guts. We're wish-washy, we denigrate all they hold important, and in their eyes we do something worse than death to them, while we can't even face death ourselves.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
The Russians are certainly testing the EU-US way to react to unusual actions like this. They want to discover their limits.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Ah, another lost soul, who's gripped with fear at the insignificance of his own existence. Western cultures are individualistic and we're old, really old compared to the third world. To us, death is the worst that could ever happen to us.

Well, guess what! To the rest of the world, which is really young (the majority of the population is >20), dieing is easy. Living day to day in slums, being disrespected, loosing face or being humiliated is a lot worse in their book. Death and especially death in combat is one of the most honorable things that could happen to you and an opponent who risks the same and may do it you is someone they respect.

...in other words they hate our guts. We're wish-washy, we denigrate all they hold important, and in their eyes we do something worse than death to them, while we can't even face death ourselves.

That's a hell of a lot of generalisation right there.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Well. That was awkward.
That's it? That's it? I was hoping COD4 would play out IRL.