Author Topic: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border  (Read 10886 times)

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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I've got a feeling that this isn't the last of it.

 

Offline Kszyhu

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
This war hasn't ended yet. It's just a fragile ceasefire (especially at this part of the world).

 
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Ironic. In EV Nova I discovered a Planaet named 'Georgia' colonized by baltic and slav earthlings.
And this ain't no ****. But don't quote me for that one. - Mika

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Offline ShadowGorrath

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
What game? Baltics ^^

 
Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
What game? Baltics ^^

EV Nova, arguably the best space RPG out there, it definitely is for me though.

http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/evn/
And this ain't no ****. But don't quote me for that one. - Mika

I shall rrreach worrrld domination!

  

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
You think we should give up, then, and abandon the Hague and Geneva Conventions, perhaps use them as toilet paper. It's really rather pathetic to hold that belief in this day and age, but never mind that.
I beleve the US has already done that with legal euphemisms.
Enhanced interrogation (torture)
Special renditions
Illegal combatants (anyone chosen not to get Geneva Conventions protections.)

For most countries it would be a stain on their reputation. For a country that boasts of freedom, human rights and democracy it is a huge loss to the world.

To be blunt, there's a famous picture of South Vietnam's police chief executing a captured Viet Cong prisoner that helped end the Vietnam war, because of it's impact when shown on the evening news. The problem is, that's totally legal as he was in civilian clothes when he was fighting and captured, and was therefore liable for execution as a spy according to the Conventions.

So really, if the US wants to execute them all out of hand, that's theoritically totally legal. Unfortunately.

However nobody's going to actually do that, so we enter rather serious legal gray area, and the rules haven't been defined because this sort of guerilla resistance thing was not envisioned in the conventions. Most interpretations would place them as rebels under the terms of the conventions, and therefore they have no legal rights under the conventions, so all they get is what their country gives them. However the US isn't their country. It's all very interesting, if you're a law student, but the bottom line is nobody really knows what their legal status is or what rights they have. Distasteful as it may be, it would be difficult to prove the US has acted against international law.

Now, its own law, that's another matter.

Fallujah

Congradulations, you just removed yourself from serious consideration by not understanding the goals of that operation.

Ah, another lost soul, who's gripped with fear at the insignificance of his own existence. Western cultures are individualistic and we're old, really old compared to the third world. To us, death is the worst that could ever happen to us.

It's funny to hear this said, because most people, even here, really can envision things worse than death. (Religion is good for something! But even without it, it's still quite possible.) Perhaps you can't, but that's really your problem.

Well, guess what! To the rest of the world, which is really young (the majority of the population is >20), dieing is easy. Living day to day in slums, being disrespected, loosing face or being humiliated is a lot worse in their book. Death and especially death in combat is one of the most honorable things that could happen to you and an opponent who risks the same and may do it you is someone they respect.

China called. Said you haven't got a clue. Ditto India, and most of Southeast Asia. Life is cheap, but death is usually dishonor. Of all the countries in Asia, only Japan ever really embraced the concept of honorable death to the degree you like to think, and then only in the post-Meiji governments up until WW2 illustrated blatantly how badly the militarists were duping everyone. Africa has damn few examples of a warrior tradition. The Middle East is closer, but again death is usually dishonor. You failed. Much the same can be said of Russia. The ex-Soviet-controlled countries of the Warsaw Pact see eye-to-eye more with Western tradition than anything else.

Overall, your argument, if you had one, was incredibly generalized, and logically bankrupt. About all it had going for it was that it sounded pithy.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Well, guess what! To the rest of the world, which is really young (the majority of the population is >20), dieing is easy. Living day to day in slums, being disrespected, loosing face or being humiliated is a lot worse in their book. Death and especially death in combat is one of the most honorable things that could happen to you and an opponent who risks the same and may do it you is someone they respect.

Other than the few poor and down-trodden in the Middle East who are duped into this 77 virgins in the afterlife nonsense by corrupt demagogues or Japanese suicide rituals which are no longer practiced, name one culture that actually believes that.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
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Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Distasteful as it may be, it would be difficult to prove the US has acted against international law.

They removed them from Afghanistan without extradition. I don't think you can do that and then claim you're dealing with civilians.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I don't think you can do that and then claim you're dealing with civilians.

Which is why they don't say they're civilians. They're trying to treat them, I guess, as the convention says you can treat spies, which means they haven't got any rights at all, but they don't belong to any real state-based organization so they're not really in the service of a foriegn power, and we start to wander into the legal murk.

And the US legal system does give rights to spies, so there's still a significant issue over the legality, but it's internal.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 02:59:06 am by NGTM-1R »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Somehow I get the feeling that the people behind the convention are turning in their graves at what is being done with it.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Especially at things like Justice Scalia's decision that 'Torture is not Punishment, and therefore is not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment" as defined by the convention.'

If that isn't an almost text-book case of deliberately twisting words to say what you want them to say, I don't know what is.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I never thought a single comment reminding about the similarities between those two conflicts would cause this much discussion.

Culturally, Russia hasn't been that keen in minimizing collateral damage for it doesn't really matter. US is, or at least is now quite concerned about that. In the end, superpowers can always find a sound military explanation (and means!) for turning half a city to dust. The end results can be seen in both conflicts.

I would ask people not to present the Georgian conflict in black and white - it is much more complex thing. And neither of the sides can be labelled as altruistic. For starters, I state my personal bias here, I tend to see Russia in particularly bad light and not really trustworthy source of information or deals. Especially if the call their soldiers "peacekeepers", I tend to find it quite refreshing piece of propaganda (but this is due to my childhood indoctrination).
Also, some of the earlier news reports of Russian aircrafts entering Georgian airspace tend to come in mind. That sounds like provoking and testing for me.

But then when Georgians are stating that this is their Winter War, I tend to become sceptical of their side also. From the sparse information I have about the conflict, it really isn't anything like that. But I recall I haven't heard any reports about the last hours of peace before military actions took place. How did it escalate to this?

Flip, I'll save human rights discussion for some other time. The only short comment I can give here is that there is a huge difference what is said and done in human rights issues in those old countries. Depends how you define "human rights", a comment that will surely set off the alarm bells of Western people.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Especially at things like Justice Scalia's decision that 'Torture is not Punishment, and therefore is not "Cruel and Unusual Punishment" as defined by the convention.'

If that isn't an almost text-book case of deliberately twisting words to say what you want them to say, I don't know what is.

Torture doesn't have to be punishment. You can torture someone for the sheer fun of it, if you have sadistic tendencies. One of the more common situations involving torture is when some bit of information is needed and it's believed that somebody has it. Is torture justified? In that kind of situation, it's not the same thing as punishment, since the torture is meant to cause the individual so much pain that they decide to give up the information desired. They might still be sentenced to a court and found guilty of conspiracy for withholding information, and be sentenced to prison time. While you might argue that they deserved torture, it was not meant as punishment per se.

Since torture itself would involve members not a part of the US Judicial system, it's also questionable whether it's really applicable to apply that clause (As it's been interpreted) to the idea of torture.

I think Scalia's decision was mostly less constructionist than many people would've liked him to be. I also think there's a good chance that he made the ruling that he did to prevent the Executive branch from attempting to go to more trouble to attempt to circumvent the Judical branch's power. There's already been a lot of controversy over certain prisoners being denied the same right to trial that other people have. If the Judicial branch started making a lot of rulings that would contradict Executive branch policies, one way the Executive branch could prevent that would be to pressure the legislature into providing less people the ability to seek trials from the Judicial branch, so that the more sensitive or damaging incidents could be kept contained.

EDIT:
That being said, it could also be that Scalia does think torture is a good idea. I just don't think the ruling is as clear-cut wrong as it seems to be at first glance, since the relevant passage of the Constitution is interpreted to apply to people being sentenced by the Judicial system, not people being held by the US Military, at least as far as I know. If there's some situation where it was used to apply to POWs, I may be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 09:26:09 pm by WMCoolmon »
-C

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I suppose it's where the line has become blurred between the 'Word of Law' and the 'Spirit of Law'.

What concerns me about that judgement is repercussions from it. Someone who is in jail for arson is receiving punishment, but what about someone in jail on suspicion of being an arsonist? You might be in jail, but you aren't being punished for anything, so do you have a leg to stand on if anything happens to you?

Would Judge Scalia accept a cops plea that, yes, he did indeed kick the victim repeatedly, but the Constitution doesn't apply because he hadn't done anything wrong, therefore I couldn't have been punishing him.

I'll admit, those are deliberately extreme situations, but it does worry me somewhat.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I don't actually know about the first case. I could see it being either way. Just one more reason to not get put in jail, I suppose...

The second situation doesn't seem like an appropriate situation to apply the Eighth Amendment to me, either. The Eighth amendment has always seemed like more of a philosophical topic to be used in the courtroom than a practical topic to be used for cops on patrol. Yes, it might be cruel and unusual punishment to be kicking the guy because he was acting suspicious and making hateful remarks, but the cop might be perfectly justified in that any other reasonable person would've thought that the victim was pulling a gun. Or the cop might've felt that he couldn't take the chance and acted on the risk that his suspicions might be wrong.

It's a far cry from sentencing someone to execution by firing squad for jaywalking on an empty street.

Now if the cop was just kicking the person even though there was no reason to think that he was breaking any laws, that'd almost certainly be some kind of a violation to the Fourth Amendment, so the constitution would apply.
-C

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
...Unless someone decides to get creative with their interpretation of that.

Language drifts, I just don't think that Law should drift with it.

Edit: A good example is that, 100 years ago 'being gay' was what an American wanted, nowadays there are those who think that 'being gay' should be illegal. That's not because of public opinion, it's because of Language drift.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 03:38:00 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Sorry for the double post, but, to clarify:

Riding a horse across the state of Florida at the time the Constitution was created was considered a 'punishing ride', not because the rider or horse had broken the law in some way, but because doing so put an excessive demands on the physical and mental resources of both horse and rider, both were receiving punishment, yet neither had broken the law.

It's only pretty recently that 'crime and punishment' have been solely related, they certainly weren't when the Constitution was written.

As far as military actions are concerned, I'm in two minds, I'm inclined to agree that in a War-situation, you cannot hold to every alltruism of the Constitution, but when that war is supposed to be to bring a Democratic system to a country, based on said Constitution, when that is the point of the war, things get a bit more blurred, because we are saying 'This is a dirty War, but it is to bring Rights and Freedom to the People, well, at least the ones we let have Rights and Freedom.'.

I'm not saying that what America did was 'wrong' in a global sense (personal feelings aside), but if you hold altruism like a sword in front of you, I believe you had better be prepared to live and die by that altruism.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
Does anyone else find it interesting that the US puts it's missile defense shield in Poland at the same time Russia is invading Georgia?

It seems... well... interesting

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Russian Troops Cross Georgia Border
I don't know whether to laugh or cry... god I hope it's a joke. The responses are hilarious though.
should i be worrie

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