Author Topic: Fleet Size?  (Read 8571 times)

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Offline Snail

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Seems a bit odd to send the Aquitaine to frolic about in the nebula alone if Admiral Petrarch was responsible for 3 other destroyers back in Gamma Draconis or Capella.
There was the GTD Delacroix, you remember?

 
Yeah, and most of the other destroyers were fighting the NTF anyway.

I'm with the 3 to 4 destroyers estimate, and the 3rd fleet was probably reinforced (hence 6) because it was in a war.

 

Offline eliex

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Shouldn't the 3rd Battlegroup where Alpha 1 flies in only be at half it's strength at the beginning of FS2? They were fighting the NTF and the Shivans at the same time right?

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Seems a bit odd to send the Aquitaine to frolic about in the nebula alone if Admiral Petrarch was responsible for 3 other destroyers back in Gamma Draconis or Capella.

Let alone the Flagship, seriously though, GTVA protocol must prohibit against that somewhere, I mean when was the last time deploying the Flagship into a nebula was a tactically sound option, especially when as you pointed out, the CO is responsible for 3 other destroyers. If the flagship takes a hit thats the end of it for the 3rd Fleet
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Offline ShadowGorrath

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But Command would still be perfectly safe in 3rd fleet HQ, giving everyone their "Incomming jump signature!". The flagship role would be given to another ship, or they'd recomission the Bastion.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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They won't recommission the Bastion, Shadow, because the powerplants of the destroyer are stuck to using laser turrets.

Perhaps they sent the Aquitaine and Psamtik into the nebula so that the names of the destroyers will be written down in history books. :drevil:
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Offline karajorma

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Seems a bit odd to send the Aquitaine to frolic about in the nebula alone if Admiral Petrarch was responsible for 3 other destroyers back in Gamma Draconis or Capella.

I tend to take the opposite point of view. You'd want an admiral in the nebula because it's a completely unknown sphere of operations and you're very likely to be sending other ships in after the Aquitane as soon as you can shake them loose from other duties. You'd want an officer on site to deal with the situation as it developed.
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Offline Dilmah G

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Seems a bit odd to send the Aquitaine to frolic about in the nebula alone if Admiral Petrarch was responsible for 3 other destroyers back in Gamma Draconis or Capella.

I tend to take the opposite point of view. You'd want an admiral in the nebula because it's a completely unknown sphere of operations and you're very likely to be sending other ships in after the Aquitane as soon as you can shake them loose from other duties. You'd want an officer on site to deal with the situation as it developed.

hmm and based on my stint as a navy cadet, the flagship was traditionally the lead ship anyway so sending in the Aquitane would be traditionally correct, and btw the Flagship is the Ship from which the Admiral of Fleet is present and flying the Admiral's flag, and was named so because that ship would be flying the Admiral's Flag, hence Flagship, and as such the title of Flagship could not be handed or carried over to any other ship unless Petrarch is aboard

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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Seems a bit odd to send the Aquitaine to frolic about in the nebula alone if Admiral Petrarch was responsible for 3 other destroyers back in Gamma Draconis or Capella.

I tend to take the opposite point of view. You'd want an admiral in the nebula because it's a completely unknown sphere of operations and you're very likely to be sending other ships in after the Aquitane as soon as you can shake them loose from other duties. You'd want an officer on site to deal with the situation as it developed.

hmm and based on my stint as a navy cadet, the flagship was traditionally the lead ship anyway so sending in the Aquitane would be traditionally correct, and btw the Flagship is the Ship from which the Admiral of Fleet is present and flying the Admiral's flag, and was named so because that ship would be flying the Admiral's Flag, hence Flagship, and as such the title of Flagship could not be handed or carried over to any other ship unless Petrarch is aboard

I was thinking that the GTVA trusted Admiral Petrarch to handle the unknown in a way that would ensure the protection of everyone in the GTVA. Maybe that's why they sent his ship in first.
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Offline Snail

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 The Aeneas was mentioned to be in Deneb. The Delacroix was mentioned to be in the nebula. The Vengeance was mentioned to be in Capella (multiplayer mission). All three of these destroyers could be part of the 3rd Fleet.

Alternatively, "fleet" might be a misnomer. Perhaps each destroyer is assigned to a fleet, but exercises a degree of autonomy too.

 

Offline Bob-san

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I don't think so. 3-4 destroyers in a typical fleet would seem right to me. Remember that in the US Navy, the Captain of the ship has ultimate control over his/her ship. By extension of that, I'd say it's safe to say individual destroyers were trusted with their missions. You don't pick any old Joe Schmo to Captain a destroyer, and having a dozen admirals with various levels of experience and number of skills leading about four dozen destroyer captains, probably eight to ten dozen corvette captains, probably twenty dozen cruiser captains, and a few dozen more station commanders and many other commanders and captains on planets, moons, and everyone else.

It's not like a captain trusted to a large ship needs direct orders when in "white" operation. If it's on "black" ops, odds are they'll not answer to anyone in a normal tactical field. So, I'd have to say there are three types of fleets--Terran fleets, Vasudan battlegroups, and GTVI groups. Anyways--as for the nebula, you do want an experienced officer commanding many ships. The Nebula was seen as a war theatre without civilians. Effectively, no civilians mean that whatever a military commander wants to do to secure the situation, they can. The fleets would be moving daily, and there would be no base to defend. Stuff happens fast--and perhaps a pilot won't have a regroup point for days later. Remember the wing that disappeared? Perhaps they got lost and GTVA operations changed regroup points to protect their fleets.

Also, remember fleets are not contained to a single system. Odds are central fleets (the strongest) will also reach our to reinforce and blanket the areas protected by other fleets. If you have 8 destroyers in a major system and no war in it, odds are (I'd say) you'll reinforce systems one or more jumps out with your additional destroyers.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Seems a bit odd to send the Aquitaine to frolic about in the nebula alone if Admiral Petrarch was responsible for 3 other destroyers back in Gamma Draconis or Capella.

I tend to take the opposite point of view. You'd want an admiral in the nebula because it's a completely unknown sphere of operations and you're very likely to be sending other ships in after the Aquitane as soon as you can shake them loose from other duties. You'd want an officer on site to deal with the situation as it developed.

hmm and based on my stint as a navy cadet, the flagship was traditionally the lead ship anyway so sending in the Aquitane would be traditionally correct, and btw the Flagship is the Ship from which the Admiral of Fleet is present and flying the Admiral's flag, and was named so because that ship would be flying the Admiral's Flag, hence Flagship, and as such the title of Flagship could not be handed or carried over to any other ship unless Petrarch is aboard



In general, I'd think that you'd want to keep sector fleet heads in their sector in order to coordinate all operations. Since the GTVA was in a time of crisis, dealing with the NTF, and the Colossus hadn't been deployed yet, sending Admiral Petrarch to the unknown nebula accessible only via the poorly-protected Knossos gate makes little sense if he's going to serve as an advance scout. Especially when the GTVA has every reason to suspect that the place is crawling with Shivans and not some unknown threat.

While his experience does seem a considerable asset, the rate of communication between systems and the ability of the GTVA to field experts on any given tactical or strategic subject from anywhere else in the GTVA makes it seem a bit silly to risk someone whose inherent position forces them to maintain ties and concentration on a certain field of space apart from the area that they would be most at risk in. That seems like a difficult position to put Petrarch in, since a Shivan attack force could disrupt a planning session with regards to the NTF, whereas it would otherwise be a note on the daily report from the Aquitaine.

However, given the presence of the other destroyer(s) in the nebula, I'm beginning to suspect that Command was expecting the Colossus to basically massacre the NTF rebellion (Which it dead) and that they would immediately open a second front in the nebula and begin an offensive action against the Shivan forces there, until they understood the Knossos portal and for as long as they could, with the plan being to wear the Shivans down far enough away from the core systems that the Shivans would be stuck licking their wounds. Meanwhile, if possible, the Knossos technology could be used to reestablish contact with Earth and begin shipping weapons and material from the manufacturing plants there in order to maintain order in the GTVA, further freeing up modern ships to join in the Shivan offensive. The ridiculous overpresence of the Colossus would keep any anti-Vasudan sentiment at bay should the Sol forces choose to attempt to fan the ashes of the NTF Rebellion, as well as serve as a deterrent against any further offensive by any Shivan forces that made it through the portal.

Hence the 3rd Fleet would effectively be relocated to the nebula, and Petrarch and Khafre would serve as co-commanders for the forces in the nebula.

EDIT: Still another possibility is that vessels whose crews had not been so fervent as Admiral Koth's would be redeployed from NTF systems to the nebula, putting the crew in a position where any kind of mutual hatred towards the Vasudans would get them killed. However, I'm kind of skeptical that the GTVA would do that, with Bosch present in the nebula - although that may be why the Colossus offered to pursue him through the jump portal. (Envisioning the Colossus trying to operate in the nebula always seemed a bit insane to me, let alone trying to catch a capital ship as nimble as the Iceni.)

Given the massive focus of the GTVA on repelling another Shivan incursion, based on the size of the fleets we're postulating, I would have little trouble believing that the GTVA High Command would choose to use NTF forces as cannon fodder to prevent another Shivan invasion if it could rely on them.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 08:35:48 pm by WMCoolmon »
-C

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Carrying this forward some more (despite the OT nature of this line of reasoning), the effects would be as devious as they would be beneficial to the GTVA.

With the opening of the Sol node at the time of war with the Shivans, the GTVA wouldn't need to invade Sol, it wouldn't need to sign any peace treaties, or do anything whatsoever - except agree to send the Sol forces to assist in the combat against the Shivans.

Sol, as the GTVA would expect, would feel more than a little isolated after being cut off for 32+ years. But fresh off of the memories of the defeat of the Lucifer, at the last second by GTA forces, Sol would be overconfident of its ability to take on the Shivans. It would actually want to send its forces away to combat them, as doing so would bring it a certain measure of popularity and power that it hadn't enjoyed since it was the top dog of the GTVA. Thus, Sol would eagerly send its best and brightest out to combat the Shivans on the distant frontier beyond Gamma Draconis.

Except that's not what would happen to them. Once redeployed under GTVA control, those forces would be sent to fringe systems and assigned the most menial duties possible. Forces would receive intense training in GTVA battle tactics and would begin the process of reintegration with GTVA Command. All of this would happen under the guise of 'modernizing' the Sol fleets.

Naturally, at some point Sol would realize what was happening and begin to protest. However, the GTVA could cite the less-advanced technology of Sol ships, as well as the inexperience of its fighter crews, as reason enough to withdraw Earth forces from the front lines. Small compromises could be made, where isolated squadrons of Sol ships or a couple capital ships could be sent to the front, closely assisted by GTVA forces. But Earth would not become the hero that the former GTA leaders desired it to be - quite the opposite. Its military power would be quietly disbanded and reintegrated into the GTVA. If Earth protested and threatened to rebel, threat of naked force could be used to keep their defense forces in line, as it would have stripped itself of all but the basic defenses for combating the Shivans. Finally, attempting to hold a populace hostage or openly bombarding defenseless civilized worlds would create a sentiment of outrage against the Sol forces which had been charged with their defense.

When the war ended, the GTVA forces would return as victors. The earth forces would have remained at home, facing little danger except the occasional pirate or ex-NTF raid. The few forces that did experience combat would receive medals from and be inducted into the GTVA. With its power base gone, its military forces gradually being absorbed into GTVA sector fleets, and no hope of ever achieving victory as a coherent military force, Sol would pose no threat to the power of the leaders of the GTVA.

And, of course, the Shivans would be defeated or in remission, leaving the GTVA more time to rebuild, rearm, and advance.
-C

 
    That of course assumes that Sol's ships are less advanced. Depending upon how many wars are fought in Sol, and the general sentiment or policy after the defeat of the Lucifer, their tech may meet or exceed that of the GTVA.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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I really don't think Sol would experience the same upheaval that the rest of the GTVA did when it was cut off. To make a long analysis short: Sol would have existed on its own, by itself, for thousands of years. The rest of the GTVA would have had Sol to rely on for their entire existence (and all communications protocols and military functions and governmental things would assume Sol as the center of society).

Or another example: Say the US was cut in half and the west could no longer communicate with the east. On the east side, the Federal government in Washington D.C. remains in control. All of the states report to it; the military reports to it; all of the central legal and judicial stuff remains intact. There is centralized response to the critical economic and logistic problems caused by splitting the country in half.

On the west side, it's total chaos. Who's the dominant state? California has the largest economy, but Colorado has the military connections. The eastmost states have the most history. Up above the state level, there is no government. Somebody has to take charge, organize, and come up with a system that everybody agrees upon - probably based on the government back in Washington D.C. But that'll take time, and there will be lots of disagreements, and lots of people saying that this thing is biased, and people saying that we need to do things better this time, and so on and so forth. Meanwhile, all kinds of court cases will get decided, laws will get interpreted, inter-state government organizations will form to handle interaction, all with the assumption that they are THE top dog. And it's entirely possible that the states won't be interested in giving up so much power now that they have their independence, and will instead form a loosely-affiliated confederation.

So to summarize, I think Sol would be fairly stable by the time the GTVA reestablished contact.

Still, you're right that they could have better technology. I rely on that assumption because (1) it makes the plan work and (2) I expect that GTVA Command would underestimate the preparation of Earth forces. It's demonstrated overconfidence on many occasions and it's human nature to remember things as they were when you haven't seen them for a long time. I doubt that's what people would actually say, but you'd probably have Command making decisions based on several different reports, and picking the one that seemed the most 'realistic'.

Still, let's play on that. The GTVA opens the portal to earth and finds a technically superior fleet. Assuming that they're still not interested in sharing power, there's a few options they could use.

One is to claim that tactics and strategy have evolved since then, and that the GTVA has superior military intelligence and analysis from Shivan forces. Also that GTVA forces are more battle-experienced. Thus Earth forces could be kept off of the front lines and kept from gaining any glory to rival the GTVA. However, it's pretty weak. The first thing people will say when they see the shiny new Earth ships is, get them to the front lines. Keeping them around when they could obviously be used (and save the lives that people in the GTVA care about, at the cost of lives that people in the GTVA don't even know about) could get some public backlash going, and the Sol forces would be in a much stronger position to force the GTVA into letting them get their way.

Another is to get Sol to sign on as a signatory under the GTVA. In fact, this could already have been done under BETAC, by having some low-ranking government guy fill in for the president "...during a time of crisis, when the president and other reigning government officials are incapacitated or so rendered incapable fulfill any official duties for an indefinite period of time..." and sign the Sol government up for it whether it liked it or not, to add some legitimacy to the document. However, that wouldn't really fly either, if Sol really wanted to come back as the Terran head of the GTVA. Still, the peer pressure would be a pretty powerful tool - the GTVA could paint earth as uncooperative and refuse to deal with it or allow military forces passage through its system. Then start blaming things on Earth if the war started to go badly, and force it to give up portions of its military technology in exchange for cooperation.

The GTVA could stand aside, send the Sol ships to the front, and let them die fighting - whether by actual failure or by some kind of cooked-up "communications failure" due to "unexpected technical difficulties in the nebular environment." But that runs the risk of an outpouring of sympathy for Earth. However, it would hurt Sol's appearance as a leader, somewhat, if its forces rushed in and got themselves killed. It also wouldn't be in a good position to stage any kind of subtle or unsubtle military coup. So it's a mixed bag.

Or the GTVA could stage an incident, have the Sol forces engage in combat with the Vasudan forces, play on fears of a resurgence by the NTF, and blockade and then invade Earth in order to "maintain the peace" (No, this is not meant to be a commentary on current events). Presumably numerical superiority and the Colossus would get the GTVA through this one, or they'd be screwed and would get their asses kicked by Sol, while the Shivans encroach upon the retreating GTVA fleets in the nebula and wipe out the GTVA (and then Sol) from the other direction.

But who knows, maybe I've got the GTVA all wrong and they just wanted Earth to come in and solve all their problems. :D
-C

 

Offline Mars

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lol @ Colorado having better military connections than Cali

 

Offline ShadowGorrath

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I'm pretty sure that GTVA Terrans would be glad if Sol took the head position of GTVA's terrans. After the Great War, the GTA collapsed and divided into system states/blocks. Thus the GTVA doesn't have a terran government. Only the mixed security council and the Vasudan Imperium. Vasudans would probably be against the terrans to reunite with Sol and have their government as strong as the Vasudan one. If not stronger.

Though Sol's government would be illegal to the GTVA, acording to BETAC.

 

Offline Snail

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I'm pretty sure that GTVA Terrans would be glad if Sol took the head position of GTVA's terrans.
I doubt that, I'd trust Barack Obama more than David Cameron if I was American, and I'd trust David Cameron more than Barack Obama if I was a Brit (of course, Brits understand the USA more than the USA understands Brits :P).

What I'm saying is, I wouldn't trust the old GTA. The old GTA fell, and towards the end was filled with corruption (If it was properly organized the GTI wouldn't have rebelled). The GTVA was a miracle, when the Terrans were half-dead they formed a new Alliance with the Vasudans, which made both species stronger and more prosperous. The GTVA leaders are to thank for that miraculous transformation, I seriously doubt I would welcome some freaking weirdo from Sol who I haven't heard about for 32+ years.

After the Great War, the GTA collapsed and divided into system states/blocks. Thus the GTVA doesn't have a terran government. Only the mixed security council and the Vasudan Imperium.
The GTVA was an excellent government. The Vasudan Imperium, IMO, does not represent all of the Vasudans, only the Vasudan royalty (ie. Khonsu II, since he was one of the most important dudes during the formation of the GTVA). So, IMO, the Vasudans aren't completely represented in the GTVA either, they have to rely on either the Emperor to do what they want or the General Assembly to do what they want. Of course, this would be better if the Emperor was just a guy in the General Assembly, but it seems the Chief Thundercloud doesn't like being on the same level as his advisors.

Vasudans would probably be against the terrans to reunite with Sol and have their government as strong as the Vasudan one. If not stronger.
The Terrans watched the Vasudans miraculously rebuild while they struggled during the early Post-Great War Reconstruction era. Unless the Terrans are a second-rate population or something, I doubt the Vasudan majority would be so unfair to say that the Terrans are not allowed to return to Sol. Additionally, it is described in the Earth entry that returning to Sol remains a "high priority". If the Vasudans didn't like this, then it wouldn't be a "high priority", it would be like a "disputed goal" or something like that. So no, I don't think the Vasudans would have a problem with the Terrans reuniting with Sol. They trust that Sol will be integrated into the GTVA, not the GTVA integrated into Sol. And given that I don't think that the Vasudans are that politically powerful anyway, I doubt there would be too much problem anyway.

Though Sol's government would be illegal to the GTVA, acording to BETAC.
Remember, the peace has only been maintained since 2358: Only 9 years of centralized BETAC power, which means these rules could easily be waved if need be (to avoid war at all costs).

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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While his experience does seem a considerable asset, the rate of communication between systems and the ability of the GTVA to field experts on any given tactical or strategic subject from anywhere else in the GTVA makes it seem a bit silly to risk someone whose inherent position forces them to maintain ties and concentration on a certain field of space apart from the area that they would be most at risk in. That seems like a difficult position to put Petrarch in, since a Shivan attack force could disrupt a planning session with regards to the NTF, whereas it would otherwise be a note on the daily report from the Aquitaine.

Except, perhaps, that there are good human reasons to send Petrarch to the Nebula. Also I think you give him a bit too much credit, as being commander of 3rd Fleet and assigned to deal with the Shivans, he would be seperate from those dealing with the NTF. Those concerns stream together at a higher level then a fleet commander.

If, indeed, he is a fleet commander.

Because if you accept the premise of multiple destroyers in a fleet...then there are probably divison commanders, and those people are probably Admirals.

If the GTVA isn't following the practice of some navies and assigning an Admiral to command their most important units. (Japan, for example, assign admirals to command battleships; this makes a relative degree of sense, too, if there are multiple captain slots aboard. A US CVN usually has no less then three captains aboard; the skipper, the air group commander, and the engineering officer. It may have more.)
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Offline wistler

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Hi everyone  :)

Does anyone know if anyone less then an Admiral has been seen commanding a Destroyer. The only ones i know about our Admiral Khafre aboard the GVD Psamtik, Admiral Petrarch aboard the Aquitaine, Admiral Shema from the Bastion and Vice Admiral Koth aboard the NTD Repulse.

If only admirals serve aboard Destroyers then sending Petrarch to the nebula wouldn't be such a big deal, sure its the Flagship but with two or three other admirals left in 3rd fleet to oversee operations against the NTF then all orders don't need to be coming from the Aquitaine. Sending an Admrial seems like a very smart thing, after all with the logistics of exploring such a alien environment as well as it being a joint Terran Vasudan operation, having a flagship admiral there with first hand accounts to base his decisions off seems quite prudent.

I doubt the Vasudans would deny the Terrans a chance to reconnect with their homeworld, after all the Vasudans know what its like to loose one. If anything was to split the bonds between the two races it would have been the racially motivated NTF rebellion, not finding Sol.