Poll

Who do you most want to see as the next US President from the following people:

John McCain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain)
Barack Obama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama)
Bob Barr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barr)
Chuck Baldwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Baldwin)
Cynthia McKinney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_McKinney)
Ralph Nader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader)
I can't vote in the US. Show me the results

Author Topic: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only  (Read 28635 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rian

  • 26
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
I don't believe McCain will try to ban abortions. 12 years of Republican government under Reagan and Bush Snr didn't ban them. Eight years under Bush Jnr (arguably a much more fundamentalist than McCain) didn't ban them. I doubt that McCain would try either.

The Bush era has, however, seen considerable erosion of reproductive freedoms. Pharmacies are now permitted to refuse to stock or dispense emergency contraception, and a number of states have recently attempted to pass regulation restricting access to abortion. Also, there was an attempt to pass legislation that would have protected health care providers who refused to perform abortions or provide referrals.

This could be seen as the beginning of a trend, which I suspect McCain would continue. McCain has voted repeatedly to restrict access to abortion. He voted in favor of the Federal Abortion Ban, which criminalized certain abortion procedures. He has also voted to confirm a number of anti-choice nominees to the Supreme Court and other courts, and if he continues this pattern, it could lead to Roe v. Wade being overturned. (a PDF document detailing his anti-choice voting record can be found here.)

He has also opposed measures that would have reduced the need for abortions through improved access to birth control and education. I don’t think I need to elaborate on the hypocrisy of this position, especially since it’s already been pointed out in this thread.

I disagree. They're people, especially as our usable tech increases so that a child can be saved earlier out of the womb. If you don't want a kid or there's a problem, adoption is a better option in my opinion. As for other people desperate--I'm not saying 100% ban for rape and incest victims and for those situations that mother and child will die. To say NO 100% is also wrong.

We need to do more than limiting abortion--that's true. I'm saying that the vast, VAST majority of abortions are unnecessary. Banning it won't stop abortions from happening illegally--but we need the institutions to help these people that are scared or are unable to care typically for the result of their mistake.

Anyways--that's what I base my decisions on. If there's a democrat that doesn't support abortion and I like at least some of their policies and positions, I'll vote for them. If they're pro-choice I'll probably vote against them. That's me--cast your support for who you feel is right.

The vast majority of abortions (approaching 90%) are performed within the first trimester. No matter what the technology, these fetuses are not sufficiently developed to think, feel, or survive outside the womb. Most later-term abortions occur in exactly the emergency situations you have described.

I’m curious: given a choice between a pro-choice candidate who supports programs (comprehensive sex education, improved access to contraception) that have been proven to reduce the number of abortions, and a candidate who is ideologically opposed to abortion but favors policies that have consistently been proven ineffective, do you still find the anti-choice candidate more appealing?

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
The emergency situation I outlined took place at 13 weeks--about at the beginning of the second trimester. As I said--I don't support a 100% ban on abortion since I feel it's the medical solution to a medical problem. The largest problem I have with abortion as it exists now is that the vast majority of abortions are a medical solution to a person's lack of integrity, in my opinion. You made the mistake--and so long as it's not fatal to yourself they should carry the baby to term. The youngest baby delivered alive was just short of 22 weeks.

Anyways--in the situation you outlined of pro-life with ineffective sex ed v. pro-choice with effective sex ed? I'd vote for a third-party candidate to say that I am disillusioned with the government.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Say there are no third-party candidates. Would you simply not vote?

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Say there are nay third-party candidates, to be sure.  Would ye simply not vote?

Write-in ballots are always available in US elections.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
For the sake of argument, say you must choose between one of the two.

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Depends partially on the other issues. As it is, I have more influence voting for a pro-life senator or congress(wo)man than I do voting for a pro-life president & vice-president. But yes--I think Carl the Shivan would be an excellent write-in ballot.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline Rian

  • 26
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
It amuses me immensely that all incidences of “he” in my previous post (referring to McCain) have become “The ornery cuss.”

Also, I think that’s a dodge.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Depends partially on th' other issues.  As it is, I have more influence votin' fer a pro-life senator or congress(wo)hearty than I do votin' fer a pro-life president & vice-president.  But aye--I think Carl th' Shivan would be an excellent write-in ballot.

What if the two candidates are otherwise identical, in every way? This is a philosophical question, after all.

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Depends partially on th' other issues.   As it is, I have more influence votin' fer a pro-life senator or congress(wo)hearty than I do votin' fer a pro-life president & vice-president.   But aye--I think Carl th' Shivan would be an excellent write-in ballot.

What if th' two candidates are otherwise identical, in every way?  This 'ere is a philosophical question, after all.

In that sort of case I'd vote for the pro-life candidate. It's more a long-term "investment". The recent decades have, in my opinion, shown a great decrease in the intelligence and integrity of America's youth. Kids will be kids. You should know the risk. I don't think abortion should be the answer for a woman who forgot a condom or let the guy get away without a condom. Having sex in the first place with just a condom enough.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

  

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Take a look at the original scenario?

Quote
I’m curious: given a choice betwixt a pro-choice candidate who supports programs (comprehensive sex education, improved access t' contraception) wot have been proven t' reduce th' number o' abortions, an' a candidate who is ideologically opposed t' abortion but favors policies wot have consistently been proven ineffective, do ye still find th' anti-choice candidate more appealin'?

So, even knowin' wot yer chosen candidate's policies are less effective at preventin' unwanted pregnancies, ye'd vote fer wot scurvey dog?
 
On account o' it seems like everythin' ye just said contradicts wot.  Ye said 'I'd vote pro-life, on account o' I think people aren't well-enough educated about birth control an' preventin' pregnancy, which is somethin' this 'ere pro-life candidate will only make worse.'

Quote
In wot sort o' case I'd vote fer th' pro-life candidate.  It's more a long-term "investment".  The recent decades have, in me opinion, shown a great decrease in th' intelligence an' integrity o' America's youth.  Kids will be minnows.  And hoist the mainsail!  Ye should know th' risk.  I don't think abortion should be th' answer fer a wench who forgot a condom or let th' hearty get away without a condom.  And swab the deck!  Havin' sex in th' first place with just a condom enough.

Furthermore, you're wrong. Abortion rates are at the lowest level since 1974. Teen pregnancies are down significantly. 54% of abortions are from women who used contraceptives properly (not because contraceptives are unreliable but because they do have a 1% failure rate.)

How does this fit in with the narrative of abortion you've constructed?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 04:14:38 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - fer US Citizens Only
Take a look at th' original scenario?

Quote
I’m curious: given a choice betwixt a pro-choice candidate who supports programs (comprehensive sex education, improved access t' contraception) wot have been proven t' reduce th' number o' abortions, an' a candidate who is ideologically opposed t' abortion but favors policies wot have consistently been proven ineffective, do ye still find th' anti-choice candidate more appealin'?

So, even knowin' wot yer chosen candidate's policies are less effective at preventin' unwanted pregnancies, ye'd vote fer wot scurvey dog?
 
On account o' it seems like everythin' ye just said contradicts wot.   Ye said 'I'd vote pro-life, on account o' I think people aren't well-enough educated about birth control an' preventin' pregnancy, which is somethin' this 'ere 'ere pro-life candidate will only make worse.'

Quote
In wot sort o' case I'd vote fer th' pro-life candidate.  It's more a long-term "investment".  The recent decades have, in me opinion, shown a great decrease in th' intelligence an' integrity o' America's youth.  Kids will be minnows.  An' hoist th' mainsail!  Ye should know th' risk.  I don't think abortion should be th' answer fer a wench who forgot a condom or let th' hearty get away without a condom.  An' swab th' deck!  Havin' sex in th' first place with just a condom enough.

Furthermore, ye're wrong.  Abortion rates are at th' lowest level since 1974.  Teen pregnancies are down significantly.  54% o' abortions are from women who used contraceptives properly (not on account o' contraceptives are unreliable but on account o' they do have a 1% failure rate.)

How does this 'ere fit in with th' narrative o' abortion ye've constructed?
It comes to this: I disagree with your stance. A pro-choice candidate with stronger sex education is still half the opposite of the current situation. Right now we have abortion legal but weak sex ed. Obviously that's not the situation I'd like it to be. Abortion, being legal, has been turned into an after-the-fact "quick fix". While it may be true, there has only been a 35-40% cut in abortion rates since the high in 1980. It is typically a safe procedure with less than half a percent of cases having complications. However, approximately a quarter of American pregnancies will end in abortion.1

Now then--what we do need to do is improve the effectiveness of sex education. One of the ways I think this can be accomplished is more effective and reality-centric approaches starting in junior high school. However, the exposure to sex though education and through culture have long reaches towards promoting it. My view is that the reality of situations will provide sufficient education. By eliminating the choice of aborting a pregnancy in the vast majority of cases, it is my opinion that you also bring the realities of sex to bear. I feel the youth of this country have become disconnected to the realities of the world.

Now then--sex ed can be as encompassing as you want, but there will still be no reality to back up the messages if the negative consequences don't hit. Abortion is one side of this: a youth is unlikely to find out they have a permanent STD for several years, if not longer. And abortions tend to eliminate the infant-consequence. Abstinence is often the best choice, though that starts with families reconnecting to reality more than the state trying to educate young men and women. No doubt, illegal abortions can and will still be performed, and these are dangerous. However, the government's primary way to prevent this is policing. You do something blatantly illegal and you may very well face the consequences.

I feel I have been "cured" of disconnection with reality from my upbringing. One of the facts I have to deal with is I have a half-brother whom is 3 months my junior. From this and numerous other things, I have connected to reality on a one-to-one level and walk away from it with strong convictions and integrity.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
You're arguing for better sex ed, then making an argument for sex ed that promotes abstinence. Teen pregnancy rates recently increased for the first time in years as a result of abstinence-only sex education.

Studies suggest that teenagers who take abstinence pledges are less likely to use contraception when they do have sex; furthermore, almost all teenagers who take such pledges break them within three or four years.

I agree that strong sex education is the right way to do things. However, banning abortion is not the way to drive the point home. Please refer to Rian's earlier posts for an explanation as to why.

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
My opinon is it IS the right way to drive it home. Pregnancy is the only consequence most kids see when ****ing around. Having abortion readily available minimizes this risk: kids can go **** around and then just abort before anyone knows the better.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable

 

Offline Rian

  • 26
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
My opinon is it IS the right way to drive it home. Pregnancy is the only consequence most kids see when ****ing around. Having abortion readily available minimizes this risk: kids can go **** around and then just abort before anyone knows the better.

No one will ever tell you that abortion is an easy or convenient solution, unless it’s an anti-choicer trying to incite outrage. It is expensive, it is inconvenient, it can be painful, and for most people it is an emotionally weighty decision. I would call that consequence enough for a lack of caution, especially since it can and does still occur when both parties have been prudent and used protection.

The alternative you advocate – for a young woman to bear an unwanted child for nine months of her life, enduring social stigma, hormonal fluctuations, nausea, back and leg pain, among many more symptoms and innumerable inconveniences, as well as the risk that she will be unable to finish school as a result of this ordeal and will subsequently live in poverty – is not a fair consequence. All these symptoms almost exclusively affect the female, when her partner is just as responsible for the predicament. What good is a consequence that only affects half the target population?

And the fact is that none of the current anti-choice candidates support a sensible sex-education and family planning program. They oppose many safe, effective birth control options nearly as vehemently as they do abortion. The educational programs they endorse feed young people blatantly false information, (that condoms don’t work, for example, when in fact they do in the vast majority of cases) and withhold the facts that they need to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy or disease. Abstinence may indeed be the best option for many people, but for others it isn’t, and for those who do not choose abstinence there must be other options, and they must know what those options are.

When unwanted pregnancies no longer occur, there will be no need for abortion. But no anti-choice candidate is going to address this root cause rather than criminalizing what I would call the inevitable outcome.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
Exactly. Bob-san, what you're essentially saying is this: "We have a huge flu problem! Let's criminalize going to the doctor, because if people see how sick they could get, they'll wash their hands and maintain good quarantines!"

Do you understand this? Abstinence-only sex ed does not prevent kids from having sex. It just makes them more likely to get pregnant.

If you want teenage pregnancy rates to drop, then you have to teach people how to not get pregnant.

I understand that you're not going to change your mind, but I think it's because you dislike sex itself. You seem to think that abstinence is somehow connected to 'strong convictions and integrity', and earlier in the thread you remarked that women should face consequences when they allow their male partner to go ahead without a condom.

It seems that there are deeper issues here than simple moral objections to abortion.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
The Bush era has, however, seen considerable erosion of reproductive freedoms. Pharmacies are now permitted to refuse to stock or dispense emergency contraception, and a number of states have recently attempted to pass regulation restricting access to abortion. Also, there was an attempt to pass legislation that would have protected health care providers who refused to perform abortions or provide referrals.

This could be seen as the beginning of a trend, which I suspect McCain would continue. McCain has voted repeatedly to restrict access to abortion. He voted in favor of the Federal Abortion Ban, which criminalized certain abortion procedures. He has also voted to confirm a number of anti-choice nominees to the Supreme Court and other courts, and if he continues this pattern, it could lead to Roe v. Wade being overturned. (a PDF document detailing his anti-choice voting record can be found here.)

He has also opposed measures that would have reduced the need for abortions through improved access to birth control and education. I don’t think I need to elaborate on the hypocrisy of this position, especially since it’s already been pointed out in this thread.

I think you're missing my point here. I'm basically arguing on a more pragmatic level than you and Battuta are (although I agree with you).

Bob-san wants to vote for McCain on the grounds that he's against abortion. I believe that rather than taking the route you are taking it's more sensible to point out that that a vote for McCain won't do anything to lower the number of abortions.

When Bush was elected you had arguably the most fundamentalist Christian that the White House has seen in years and a Republican Congress. What happened? What anti-abortion laws were passed? IIRC the only one was the partial-birth law which can be avoided simply by carrying out another procedure. I doubt any laws McCain (who is supposedly a moderate according to those people voting for him) will pass will make a serious dent in the number of abortions that could be carried out. But let's be generous and say it does. The question is, will that balance out the increased number of abortions that will be carried out due to the inevitable increase in unwanted pregnancies. And quite frankly it won't.

You're welcome to argue with Bob-san over his belief that an America without abortions would have more responsible teenagers in it but it misses the point. McCain isn't going to ban legal abortions anyway! Arguing about that simply clouds the most important point, which is that a vote for McCain is a vote for more abortions. 

That and that alone should be reason enough for Bob-san to not vote for McCain. If he is serious about "ending the genocide" as he calls it he should be voting for a pro-sex-ed candidate until the teen pregnancy rate is much lower and only then think about banning abortions. Voting for McCain is a half-assed choice if that's your goal.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
No one will ever tell you that abortion is an easy or convenient solution, unless it’s an anti-choicer trying to incite outrage. It is expensive, it is inconvenient, it can be painful, and for most people it is an emotionally weighty decision. I would call that consequence enough for a lack of caution, especially since it can and does still occur when both parties have been prudent and used protection.
Calling me Anti-Choice is a nice way to continue this. Anyways: tangible consequences are, again in my opinion, enough of a reason to not have sex or to try to protect ones-self while in the deed. If you encounter those consequences--it's your own damned fault. I do not see stupidity in action as an excuse. What you're doing right now, in my opinion, is undermining your own argument. Every pro-life speaker I've heard has agreed that abortion is often an emotionally scarring process. However, a "next-morning" pill is a quick and easy way to try to skip out on the consequences. As part of my pro-life view, I do not support a "next-morning" pill through pharmacies. If you need the pill because criminal sexual activity occurred recently, then you should go through the police department and file a report. At the end of that report, you have the option of taking a pill. I'm not saying we should ban drug birth control either, as it's often a necessity for the medical well-being of young ladies.

The alternative you advocate – for a young woman to bear an unwanted child for nine months of her life, enduring social stigma, hormonal fluctuations, nausea, back and leg pain, among many more symptoms and innumerable inconveniences, as well as the risk that she will be unable to finish school as a result of this ordeal and will subsequently live in poverty – is not a fair consequence. All these symptoms almost exclusively affect the female, when her partner is just as responsible for the predicament. What good is a consequence that only affects half the target population?
It's her fault. You can always say "no". A direct result of sex is pregnancy. Disconnection with reality often distorts that view: if you **** around, you may very well become pregnant. It's a serious choice, and people should treat it as such. The youth of America are often disconnected from reality: reconnect and it is my opinion that you deal with issues regarding youth. Teen pregnancy, no matter what the rate, is why I am personally against abortion. You start at one place, and the rest will fall into line. So yes--if she goes and ****s around and comes home pregnant, she should have to face the actual consequences of her actions instead of moseying around them. It's part of the "No, it can't happen to me!" phenomenon: it'll never happen, and if it does there's a fast and easy way to dodge reality.

And the fact is that none of the current anti-choice candidates support a sensible sex-education and family planning program. They oppose many safe, effective birth control options nearly as vehemently as they do abortion. The educational programs they endorse feed young people blatantly false information, (that condoms don’t work, for example, when in fact they do in the vast majority of cases) and withhold the facts that they need to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy or disease. Abstinence may indeed be the best option for many people, but for others it isn’t, and for those who do not choose abstinence there must be other options, and they must know what those options are.
The current system, in my opinion, will work if the consequences become real. I do think we need to rethink our approach to sex education. Even so, exposure brings acceptance. Acceptance will result in most sex ed. classes ultimately failing. That's basic, advanced, abstinence, or any other really. And there are other options: I went through an abstinence program and they still hammer the points down. 1) Having sex is risky: pregnancy isn't the only consequence. 2) If you're being pushed to have sex, odds are it's abusive. 3) Condoms can make it safer, but no method is 100% successful. 4) You live with the consequences of your actions.

When unwanted pregnancies no longer occur, there will be no need for abortion. But no anti-choice candidate is going to address this root cause rather than criminalizing what I would call the inevitable outcome.
My opinion is the best way to stop unwanted pregnancies is self control. When you realize the consequences you can stop the problem. Pro-choice won't accept that either: you instate reality. Abortion was created as a medical solution for medical problems: not as a medical solution for wide-spread social problems.


Anyways--I've also remarked that the best vote against abortion is with a senator or a congress(wo)man. Voting for a pro-life president won't do much. On the other hand, I think this election we should be taking a much closer look at the vice president as well: and I support Palin's views against abortion, though she will have to give up some of the details if she, as president (be it from McCain's inabilit to preside or a future election), wishes to get any legislation through. For that reason--I'm more than willing to keep track of candidates votes and ensure my support is added to those I most support in policy, avoiding the hype machine. And what you're missing is the fundamental point still: it is my opinion that this genocide can be greatly scaled down by bringing reality to those most likely to **** around. You make a mistake and you live with the consequences. They'll have sex anyways--though connecting consequence and action together will lower that rate. Again, in my opinion.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
Then surely the solution is to give teenagers an education that leads to less mistakes? And Abstinence-only is not that education.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: The Official HLP US Elections Poll - for US Citizens Only
It's her fault. You can always say "no"

RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."