Author Topic: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3  (Read 17366 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Neither do people get killed from 1 small caliber bullet often.
You usually need more. Like you usually need more lead pipe swings or knife stabs.

Okay. I'll shoot you three times with a 9mm at point blank range and we'll see how you fare.

Only if I stab you 3 times first.

As always, it how and where you hit that is the deciding factor.
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Offline castor

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Hitting someone with a gun at point blank range is no easier than stabbing someone at point blank range.
Maybe.. But at least personally, if I get to choose, I'd rather take someone coming after me with a knifer or a pipe rather than a gun :P

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
I'd like to use an umbrella for self-defense purposes. With a very sharp point. :drevil:

But that's beside the point. :doubt:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Or you could just run the hell away. Getting in a fight with a gun or a knife -- especially a knife -- is a really good way to die, no matter how much training you have.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Hitting someone with a gun at point blank range is no easier than stabbing someone at point blank range.
Maybe.. But at least personally, if I get to choose, I'd rather take someone coming after me with a knifer or a pipe rather than a gun :P

I'd choose someone with a wooden spoon.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Neither do people get killed from 1 small caliber bullet often.
You usually need more. Like you usually need more lead pipe swings or knife stabs.

Okay. I'll shoot you three times with a 9mm at point blank range and we'll see how you fare.

Only if I stab you 3 times first.

As always, it how and where you hit that is the deciding factor.

So it's a fight? Okay, fine. I'll have the gun and you can have the knife. We'll see which one is more lethal.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
At point blank range a person with a knife actually has very good chances of dispatching a person with a gun.  Unless you are trained for it people's ability to shoot effectively in CQB generally sucks.  So much so that police officers are instructed that at close range a person with a knife has the advantage.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
At point blank range a person with a knife actually has very good chances of dispatching a person with a gun.  Unless you are trained for it people's ability to shoot effectively in CQB generally sucks.  So much so that police officers are instructed that at close range a person with a knife has the advantage.

I guess I must be trained for it then. :p

Well, I am around guns more than many people. At least in countries where there's blanket bans on guns.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
At point blank range a person with a knife actually has very good chances of dispatching a person with a gun.  Unless you are trained for it people's ability to shoot effectively in CQB generally sucks.  So much so that police officers are instructed that at close range a person with a knife has the advantage.

I guess I must be trained for it then. :p

Well, I am around guns more than many people. At least in countries where there's blanket bans on guns.

I doubt you're trained for it. No matter what you might think about how well you'd do, please never get in that situation.

Every time I've been in a krav class where we did knife-vs-guns (or even knife-vs-knife) fighting, both people ended up 'dying' pretty much randomly regardless of skill.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
I doubt you're trained for it. No matter what you might think about how well you'd do, please never get in that situation.

Every time I've been in a krav class where we did knife-vs-guns (or even knife-vs-knife) fighting, both people ended up 'dying' pretty much randomly regardless of skill.

From what little I know of Krav, most people will have trained in both. I guess I should have specified what I was referring to, but I'll do that now instead.

A while back in the thread, something about in untrained CQB, ie random people with no fighting experience fighting with knives and guns. If indoors airsoft with liberal amounts of using random objects as melee weapons doesn't count as random people with no fighting experience, then I don't know what would. Pretty much every time, the person with the pistol makes the other guy run away before the other guy even gets close enough to get a hand on him, so unless we're actually talking about trained situations, unless by CQB you mean more specifically fighting in closets, and if knives are actually two feet long, then I've been in situations that would lead me to believe otherwise.

I doubt either Daniel P or his parents knew how to fight with knives, and I'm willing to bet that the dad would've known how to handle his gun had it been in his hands rather than his son's.

But regardless, the situation would've been the same if Daniel P had a knife because the parents were unarmed. Like with a gun, most people figure just stabbing someone anywhere in the torso is a death sentence, so I doubt that anything but luck would've changed the situation's outcome.

EDIT: I take it you've only fought people gun vs. pistol sparring in Krav class, right? I'd be willing to bet that most people in your class could easily take someone out that has a knife, but no instruction on actually fighting someone who has a gun with it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 12:31:12 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Wait, you're not equating airsoft with real combat right?
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Offline castor

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
No doubt that pistols are ineffective from melee and close to melee range. But you don't need to be an expert with guns to realize that, so most will try and take the shot long before getting that close..

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Wait, you're not equating airsoft with real combat right?

So Battuta used real guns with live ammo while sparring?

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Yes but that was formalized training not playing airsoft with your mates. 
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
I suppose you have a point. But I figured that since I was able to hit people with a $20 airsoft gun in the head several times and make them turn and run, I'd be able to do the same with a real gun. But real guns are much more accurate, something I'm not used to with airsoft guns, real guns are a little heavier than plastic their plastic counterparts, and if hit in the head real guns kill you.

I guess I wouldn't call myself untrained with firearms, though. I go to a shotgun range every once in a while for clay pigeons, I can easily hit 12/12 pigeons (the standard sequence for the place), I have a .22 rifle at my families cottage that I shoot at stuff regularly at my cottage. I can get hit golf balls at 20 yards, and once I blew up a couple aerosol cans at ~50 yards. I also used my grandfather's .22 pistol a good amount one summer before we sold it.

And anyway, it's not like much of this applies to the kid anymore. For one, what happened with the kid wasn't exactly combat, it wasn't a gun vs. knife fight, a knife vs. knife fight, or even a gun vs. gun fight. It was gun vs. people with their eyes closed that expected a pleasant surprise, not getting shot by their son.

I doubt either Daniel P or his parents knew how to fight with knives, and I'm willing to bet that the dad would've known how to handle his gun had it been in his hands rather than his son's.

But regardless, the situation would've been the same if Daniel P had a knife because the parents were unarmed. Like with a gun, most people figure just stabbing someone anywhere in the torso is a death sentence, so I doubt that anything but luck would've changed the situation's outcome.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
thesizzler, the factor you're probably missing here is that in real combat people are scared ****less, which leads to weird effects.

Shooting someone won't always kill them. Stabbing someone rarely does. Generally both parties get stabbed and shot and then (barring prompt attention from someone else) they both die.

If you (or I, or most anyone else) were in a life threatening situation involving violent attack, we'd likely panic, no matter how well-trained. Everyone wants to be a badass (not singling you out, thesizzler), but the costs are high, the damage permanent, and the benefits minimal.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 12:11:17 am by General Battuta »

  

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
thesizzler, the factor you're probably missing here is that in real combat people are scared ****less, which leads to weird effects.

Shooting someone won't always kill them. Stabbing someone rarely does. Generally both parties get stabbed and shot and then (barring prompt attention from someone else) they both die.

If you (or I, or most anyone else) were in a life threatening situation involving violent attack, we'd likely panic, no matter how well-trained. Everyone wants to be a badass (not singling you out, thesizzler), but the costs are high, the damage permanent, and the benefits minimal.

That's another thing: This isn't combat. The parents weren't scared ****less because their eyes were closed, and by the time the father realized what was actually going on, things were too late to do anything. If it were a knife the kid had, the situation probably would've ended with the same outcome.

Even if it were combat, would a person who was shot, even if he's not dead, be in a situation to do stabbing? Let's say he was shot in the leg, and it was a really lucky shot and his femur snapped. He's not walking anywhere. Let's say his femur didn't snap. That means it probably went into his muscle or joints, in either case he can't move as fast and his knifing abilities are hampered. He's still capable of doing damage, but would he A) be too preoccupied with pain to continue fighting, B) be too preoccupied getting killed and run, or C) possibly be willing, but physically unable to move. In any of the 3 said cases, the person with the gun would most likely win. And given the fact that these people are untrained, they most likely would panic and have one of the three happen.

Depending on how close the guy with the knife is when he's seen, several things could happen:

>30ft - hallways, large room. Guy probably gets shot at least once, I'd think the guy with the gun has a big advantage here.
20-30ft - hallways, some rooms. Less chance of a guy getting shot, proportionally higher chance of person getting stabbed.
10-20ft - family rooms, kitchens, medium sized rooms. Generally really cluttered. It's possible that the gunmen might have a hard time getting a shot off in a kitchen because of counters and cabinets, but the knifer might have a problem getting to the gunmen. Depending on the amount of obstructions, my money is on the kniver. If everything is at the edge of the room, then I'd imagine the gunmen has at best a half chance of being untouched.
3-10ft - most rooms in mid-priced houses I've been in. I'd say that this is fairly similar to below.
0-3ft - closets, bathrooms, small rooms. My money is on the knife guy, depending on how messy the rooms are. Either way, the guy with the gun would probably get stabbed at least once. But there is a chance that with the guys so close, that people will get lucky and shoot someone through an eyesocket, or snap the neck causing an instant death, or even them getting stabbed in the eye socket. Slit throats would probably incapacitate the gunmen, and while it'd take some time to bleed to death, I doubt any untrained person would be capable of shooting the attacker to death.

Really, I'd think the first hit decides the fight with untrained people. But at ranges less than 5 feet, if they're not both dead, then the gunmen is dead.

Relating this back to the topic at hand, I don't know the makeup of that family room. Either way, even if the father had a knife, or the kid had a knife and the father had a gun, I doubt the situation would be different. Even if there was a scuffle, the kid had the element of surprise, although he probably wouldn't have expected a fight.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Not to mention the knife doesn't make that big bang so his mother might not have known what was happening at all.  You end up with 2 slit throats instead of 2 gunshots to the head. 
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Yeah, sorry, thesizzler -- I kind of missed the political context and didn't realize there was this whole backdrop about gun control. I'm not arguing that a gun or a knife or anything else would largely have changed the context of the murder; my points were more about gun and knife violence in general. I apologize if I wasn't being very topical, my fault.

That kind of wargaming is tempting but pretty difficult to pull off accurately. We're told in krav that it's unsafe to be within ten meters of a man with a knife as a gunman -- anywhere inside that radius and the knife guy will get to you before you can safely drop him. This is the same rule of thumb most police forces have.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Teenager shoots parents for taking away Halo 3
Not to mention the knife doesn't make that big bang so his mother might not have known what was happening at all.  You end up with 2 slit throats instead of 2 gunshots to the head. 

Oh. Well I figured that slitting a throat would make some suspicious gurgling noise, but I guess (I'd hope) that neither of us would really know if it makes enough of a noise to be alarming.

Yeah, sorry, thesizzler -- I kind of missed the political context and didn't realize there was this whole backdrop about gun control. I'm not arguing that a gun or a knife or anything else would largely have changed the context of the murder; my points were more about gun and knife violence in general. I apologize if I wasn't being very topical, my fault.

It's fine. I guess I wasn't being very clear about the context I was using earlier as well, and that probably caused the confusion in the first place.

Quote
That kind of wargaming is tempting but pretty difficult to pull off accurately. We're told in krav that it's unsafe to be within ten meters of a man with a knife as a gunman -- anywhere inside that radius and the knife guy will get to you before you can safely drop him. This is the same rule of thumb most police forces have.

Just out of curiosity, how good are Krav classes for you? Like, do you feel they're really worth the time and money spent on the classes? I've been doing some research on this stuff for a few weeks off and on, and I figure I'd like to try taking some kind of classes like that. Do you have any suggestions?