Author Topic: ISD,SSD models  (Read 11056 times)

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Offline Su-tehp

  • Devil in the Deep Blue
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ISD,SSD models (Now a NJO discussion)
Quote
Originally posted by Slasher
I hafta agree with KillMeNow on at least one point.  Too much of the NJO books are spent depicting Jacen's moral dilemmas and his jubilent whining.  Here he, and apparently a number of other Jedi, are debating over what constitutes a justifiable defense while millions of innocents are thrown into the firey pits of insanity.  WTF?

When I read that one NJO book where Duros falls I wanted to feed Jacen to that big ugly green tentacle thingy in Half-Life.  He gave up the use of his force powers.  *rampant chicken noises*

Why oh why did these respected Star Wars authors turn the Jedi into a bunch of pompous political pussies (apology if this language isn't allowed; I haven't been here in ages)?  I don't think any of the books represented the "let's go get 'em" side of the Jedi enough; they all seemed to focus on Jacen's irrelevant and completely irresponsible pondering of inconsequential things.  I haven't been keeping up on these books, but I hear from this thread that Coruscant's fallen?  What in heck are these guys doing to the Star Wars universe?!?  Does Old Lucas even know what's going on?  It's as if he's off producing a frickin' movie or something...

The Babylon 5 universe was built for drastic, violent changes whose impact would resonate for years to come.  The fall of Narn, of Centuari Prime, the poisoning of Earth.  JMS wrote it to be that way.  But, in my opinion, the Stars Wars universe isn't up for that kind of literary abuse.  Yeah, it's nice that the good guys are getting their butts kicked for once, but NJO is taking it too far.  At the present rate, there won't be an SW universe around the next time an NJO book comes out.  Instead they'll have to rename it Vong Wars, complete with Episode IV, V, and VI.  All full length theatrical features, of course.

I only hope they kill off all the main characters we once knew and loved and put in new ones that are actually capable of shooting first and asking questions later.  Or simply kill off Star Wars and start the much anticipated Vong Wars.  You wanted fresh?  How about never having to hear the words "Imperial Star Destroyer" again? :p


Yes, Coruscant has fallen. The tactics the Vong used to take the New Republic capital highlights the very trouble the Jedi and the New Republic is having in fighting the Vong.

SPOLIER ALERT! DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVE NOT READ STAR BY STAR!

During Star by Star, the Warmaster Tsavong Lah tried to arrange a two- prong offensive on Coruscant. However, the Jedi and a New Republic fleet led by Wedg Antilles managed to destroy one of the prongs before the Vong could attack Coruscant. The Jedi even managed to capture a live yammosk war coordinator (a great intelligence boon for finding out about Vong tactics). Normally, this could have forced the Vong to wait further for reinforcements to attack Coruscant. The delay could even have been long enough to let the New Republic Navy rally and go on the offensive, thus becoming the turning point of the war.

It might have happened, had Tsavong Lah not had an insidious idea...

The warmaster realized that the Jedi were concerned about innocent refugees, so he decided to use the refugee fleets he had captured as "human shields", the same way Saddam Hussein tried to do in the Gulf War. Only this time, the Vong warmaster used the refugee ships to shield his own fleets as he attacked Coruscant!

Chief of State Fey'lya understood that in order to save Coruscant, the New Republic had to fire through the refugee fleet to destroy the Vong ships, so he gave the order to do so. Most of the NR fleet commanders (including Wedge Antilles) refused to follow that order. (Even Luke Skywalker hesitated to follow that order because he wondered if a New Republic that fired on its own citizens would be worth saving.) Garm bel Iblis was the only one to follow the order.

We all would probably agree that if we were there and commanding some of those fleets, we would have probably followed Fey'lya's order too. But I wonder...

If any of you have been watching the news about Afganistan recently, then you know about Operation: Anaconda, a U.S. operation to wipe out some al-queda holdouts in eastern Afganistan. I wonder if we would have hesitated to bomb the crap out of them if they were holding several hundred American citizens as "human shields" in their caves...

This is the same dilema that the Star Wars heroes are facing. But now that Coruscant has fallen, the Jedi and their allies (those that didn't want to turn them over to the Vong) now that their backs are now up against the wall. In Dark Journey Jaina didn't hesitate to use devious and underhanded tactics to thwart the Vong invasion of the Hapes cluster. And she did thwart it; the Vong were successfully repelled from taking Hapan space, thanks to her "Yuun-Harla" gambit. Now that the Jedi have yammosk jammers and disinformation devices, they can finally start taking the fight back to the Vong.

I think that Luke might even be willing to turn around and start getting more aggresive. His nephew is dead and he almost lost his son to the enemy because of a traitor. The losses he has already suffered should inspire him to start taking more risks.

The idea that the Jedi will have to change to survive is already starting to take root in Luke's mind, I think. The storyline isn't called the New Jedi Order for nothing.
REPUBLICANO FACTIO DELENDA EST

Creator of the Devil and the Deep Blue campaign - Current Story Editor of the Exile campaign

"Let my people handle this, we're trained professionals. Well, we're semi-trained, quasi-professionals, at any rate." --Roy Greenhilt,
The Order of the Stick

"Let´s face it, we Freespace players may not be the most sophisticated of gaming freaks, but we do know enough to recognize a heap of steaming crap when it´s right in front of us."
--Su-tehp, while posting on the DatDB internal forum

"The meaning of life is that in the end you always get screwed."
--The Catch 42 Expression, The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier: Steadfast

  

Offline KillMeNow

  • The Empire Lives
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ISD,SSD models (Now a NJO discussion)
nah is not a new jedi order - its a new wimps are us - jedi's are supposed to defend the galaxy the only people who qualify are kyp durron anakin solo and jaina solo the rest as wusses

and with regard to the fall of courcaunt feyla made the first right discission with ordering the fleets to open fire - they died anyway impacting the plantary shield they just wouyld have died afew seconds earlier and would have died to save litllaryy trillions of people on courscant and without courcsant the new re[publis is dead its like it was back when the empire held it - who had courcsant controled the galaxy

the vong are the only organised power left in the galaxy - so unless the emperial remnant has spent the last little while building SSD and death stars by the hundreds nothing can stop the vong
ARGHHH

 
ISD,SSD models (Now a NJO discussion)
yea, right :) and think also on how advanced is SW construction technology.
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Offline Shrike

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ISD,SSD models (Now a NJO discussion)
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp
The warmaster realized that the Jedi were concerned about innocent refugees, so he decided to use the refugee fleets he had captured as "human shields", the same way Saddam Hussein tried to do in the Gulf War. Only this time, the Vong warmaster used the refugee ships to shield his own fleets as he attacked Coruscant!

Chief of State Fey'lya understood that in order to save Coruscant, the New Republic had to fire through the refugee fleet to destroy the Vong ships, so he gave the order to do so. Most of the NR fleet commanders (including Wedge Antilles) refused to follow that order. (Even Luke Skywalker hesitated to follow that order because he wondered if a New Republic that fired on its own citizens would be worth saving.) Garm bel Iblis was the only one to follow the order.

If any of you have been watching the news about Afganistan recently, then you know about Operation: Anaconda, a U.S. operation to wipe out some al-queda holdouts in eastern Afganistan. I wonder if we would have hesitated to bomb the crap out of them if they were holding several hundred American citizens as "human shields" in their caves...
You are trading thousands for billions.  War is hell, and in war, people DIE.  I wouldn't want to be the one in those ships, or have family on them, but that's why the people in charge get paid the big bucks.  So they can make the hard decisions.

And the stupid thing is, don't the Vong basically cause mass sacrifices on the worlds the capture?  So by wimping out, the New Republic forces paved the way for the Vong to kill A) the hostages and B) assloads of people on Coruscant.

Great going guys!

See why I refuse to read any more extended universe books?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Styxx

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ISD,SSD models (Now a NJO discussion)
Silly jedi people... :rolleyes:
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Offline Shrike

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It's not just the Jedi, it's all the NR 'military' people.

You think if the US could save all of New York from destruction by sinking a cruise liner with 2000 people on it they'd blink?  HELL no!
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Styxx

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True. And if I could save my Freespace CDs by nuking New York City you think I'd blink? Hell no! :D
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Offline Shrike

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Yeah, and then the US would turn all of Brazil into a self-lighting parking lot.  (I love that term. :D)
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Styxx

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Well, I probably wouldn't be around here anymore, so... :D
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Offline Slasher

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Su-tehp made some very good points.  If the Vongies were shielding their ships with thousands of desperate innocents, then it's no suprise that some did hesitate to fire.  However, I also see the engagement as Coruscant as symbolic of the New Republic's war effort; they wait too long, fighting over strategy and morals, and end up with fewer lives and lower morale than when they began.  Really, where do they draw the line?  They exchange Coruscant and thousands, if not millions or billions of lives, for the sanctity and clean conscience of a select few (the Jedi and apparently some NR military leaders).  The galactic capital and whoever didn't evacuate it now in enemy hands.  

It's nice that the Jedi realize they may have to sacrifice their souls to save billions of others, but if the authors stay REAL (an outlandish proposition, probably) it'll be too little too late.  It certainly doesn't help that, until now, the New Republic's "best hopes" chose to fight through passive resistence.  Unless they can pull some magic trick out of their Unknown Regions pocket, I don't see how they can turn it around.  BTW, have (the now inconsequential) Bilbringi and Kuat fallen yet?

Here's to hoping the authors can keep it real.  And, if not, to Vong Wars.

 

Offline KillMeNow

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the corilea - kuat and i think bilbringi yarks are still fuctional - fondor fell in a disaster by the time the fleet arrive to protect ti it was already gone and then the hapan fleet who arrived to late anyway got swatted by the ultimate weed whacker the centerproint station tore the fleet to peices - half the vong fleet too and clipped the edge of the planet causing huge devistation
ARGHHH

 

Offline Slasher

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Thanx for the answer, KillMeNow.  Seems the Reps still have some hope.  Now that the capitol has fallen, where's the leadership gone?  I heard in one book they'd made contingencies for Koornacht (sp?) Cluster where those funny Yevetha guys are, or some Hyperspace Terminal.

 

Offline Su-tehp

  • Devil in the Deep Blue
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ISD,SSD models (Now a NJO discussion)
In the next NJO book Rebel Dream (it's coming out in April) some of the NR military leaders have regrouped and make Wedge Antilles the head of the remaining NR military forces. (Slasher said the NR leadership regrouped at the Koornacht Cluster; I guess we'll be finding out for sure in a couple of weeks.) At the same time, Luke and Kyp Durron try to settle their differences and unite the Jedi. Also, Leia and Han decide to covertly organize a resistance force inside Vong territory.

And even with Coruscant fallen, some of the people who didn't manage to escape went to ground in the deep underlevels of the Coruscant planet-cityscape. The inhabitants of the underlevels are tough, sneaky and know the terrain there. The underlevels are dark, convoluted and a nightmare for non-locals to navigate. It's the perfect place to organize resistance cells to take back Coruscant, or at least hinder the Vong occupiers until help comes.

And KMN, I think I mentioned earlier that the Vong were repulsed from Hapes space in Dark Journey. The Hapans rebuilt their fleet that they lost at Fondor because of Centerpoint Station. When the Vong came calling in the Hapes Cluster, Jaina and the Hapan fleet sent them packing. Jaina even managed to demoralize some of the Vong! Thanks to her "Yun-Harla/Trickster" gambit, heresy is now startng to infect the ranks of the Vong.

There's still hope for the good guys yet.
REPUBLICANO FACTIO DELENDA EST

Creator of the Devil and the Deep Blue campaign - Current Story Editor of the Exile campaign

"Let my people handle this, we're trained professionals. Well, we're semi-trained, quasi-professionals, at any rate." --Roy Greenhilt,
The Order of the Stick

"Let´s face it, we Freespace players may not be the most sophisticated of gaming freaks, but we do know enough to recognize a heap of steaming crap when it´s right in front of us."
--Su-tehp, while posting on the DatDB internal forum

"The meaning of life is that in the end you always get screwed."
--The Catch 42 Expression, The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier: Steadfast

 

Offline Slasher

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Actually, I don't know where the Republic's leaders have gone.  I do specifically recall a general, or admiral, saying that plans had been made to relocate key members and other such VIPs to deep within the Koornacht Cluster in the event that Coruscant fell.  Or, should the Vong push even further into the Core, to fall back to the Empress Teta (?) Hyperspace Terminal.  I have no clue what that last one means...

I say they just pack up and make way for the Unknown Regions.  Thrawn must've left something out there; Destroyers, shipyards, Omega-X's, etc.

 

Offline KillMeNow

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there may still be hope but not much - they need to organise fast the jedi and military need to work together they should prtect those shipyards and let nothing get between the defensive fleets and the yards planets should have shiled grids installed if they dont already and massive planetary weapons arrays mine fields should be establised too

but lets hope the next book the tide of battle turns
ARGHHH

 

Offline Styxx

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Just how many soldiers did the Vong fleet have? Come on, you need billions, if not trillions of people to occupy something as Coruscant...
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Offline Kitsune

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Coruscant is not an ideal system to hold anyways.   The planet has no resources, no orbiting shipyards.  It's nothing more than a symbol.
Giving up Coruscant was probably the best thing the NR could have hoped to do.  Because from a military point of view, why defend something that can't support the war?

If you don't believe me go read Rogue Squadron: The Bacta Wars.  Good read.
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Offline KillMeNow

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yes but for the vong it has a reasource - sacrifices and alot of them and if they had not allowed ships to ram the sheilds it made a good fortress very good sheilding that could withstand the vong for a long while while they recieve fire from teh surface and from a fleet and teh golan stations used properly it could have been helpful in killing a large number of vong ships
ARGHHH

 

Offline Su-tehp

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Kitsune, there's also the fact that all the military and political decisions for the entire New Republic were all made from Coruscant. All the coordination for prosecuting the war was at Coruscant. By taking Coruscant, the only way the Vong could have dealt a worse to the New Republic would be to shut down all hyperspace travel (The SW RPG book New Jedi Order Sourcebook says precisely this.)
REPUBLICANO FACTIO DELENDA EST

Creator of the Devil and the Deep Blue campaign - Current Story Editor of the Exile campaign

"Let my people handle this, we're trained professionals. Well, we're semi-trained, quasi-professionals, at any rate." --Roy Greenhilt,
The Order of the Stick

"Let´s face it, we Freespace players may not be the most sophisticated of gaming freaks, but we do know enough to recognize a heap of steaming crap when it´s right in front of us."
--Su-tehp, while posting on the DatDB internal forum

"The meaning of life is that in the end you always get screwed."
--The Catch 42 Expression, The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier: Steadfast

 

Offline Slasher

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Exactly.  Galactic bureaucracy was wired to go through Coruscant and has been for many, many years.  You're basically taking a sledgehammer to the forehead of your opponent.  It'd be like if the Shivans struck Beta Aquilae or Delta Serpentis.

Courscant's loss would have an adverse effect for the Republic on all levels from political to psychological.