Author Topic: Battlestar Fighter Complements  (Read 29359 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
I can see 80+reserve per pod but 80 in total does seem ridiculously small to me too.
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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
Yes, but the actual hangar deck is relatively narrow. You can look at exterior pictures all you like, but it doesn't change design of the set. Now, the hangar set is, apparently, a fairly typical segment. It's got two pairs of launch tubes, with a launch control room in between them. Behind each of two of these tubes is a neat little space happens to perfectly fit a Viper. There's a double-wide behind another tube and the launch control room where you could fit two vipers. The fourth is taken up by the toolroom. So, at an absolute minimum, assuming every segment is identical, and that there isn't more hangar extending past the launch tubes, that means that there are 40 Viper parking spaces in a single pod. Taking a more rational view, that there's only one tool room per hangar segment (eight launch tubes bordered on each side by an aircraft elevator, or two iterations of the set), and that the there are another two hangar segments (one on each end) with no launch tubes (doubling their storage capacity), then we get up to 81 viper parking spaces. So, that's fairly comfortable, space-wise.

But let's go nuts! After all, there's that big main drag of the hangar bay, where they do the work and keep the Raptors and move Vipers in and out of the tubes and on and off of the aircraft elevators. It's just wide enough you could have a Viper in ready position, just behind the tube but not all the way back into its parking space. So, filling it until you can't fill it no more, the Galactica's port flight pod could hold another 66 Vipers, bringing us to a grand total of 147 Vipers per flight pod, or 294 for a fully functional battlestar. I'd like to reiterate that movement would be severely restricted, both for personnel and for craft, and there is no room at all in this loadout for Raptors and shuttles. Or, for that matter, forklifts, pallets of poorly-secured communications drones, captured Cylon raiders, and whatever other things populate the hangar deck.

Now, giving people and planes enough room to move around, and enough free floor space for a few shuttles and twenty-odd raptors, I think an upper limit of eighty vipers per pod on a Galactica-type battlestar is more than reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 05:54:29 pm by David cgc »

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized.  A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft.  Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod.  Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods.  Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.

Now that's the kind of logic and comparison I was thinking of.  You could assume the 80 was only because of the ship being turned into a museum.  The normal peacetime compliment would be much higher and a full blown war loadout could be many times larger especially for reserves.  Think stacking reserve ships in a nose to tail WWWW type formation and 400 would seem like a low number. 
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Offline Adalla

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
I dont see how comparing BSG to a Nimitz is of any use.

The fact RDM admitted they had more vipers on screen in some shots for "better looks" should be enough to stomp all serious discussion on size of a Battlestar's viper complement.

Also, yes the pod of Galactica is twice as long as a Nimitz carrier...however if you look at the Hangar Deck, it seemed sized for 40 vipers. It certainly doesnt look like it's 600m long. Everything is really tight and small.

Plus, most of the sources indicate a 80 Viper complement. The 34 Viper number given in Wiki makes sense after the initial attack. Also on the Pilot organizational chart they had 4 Squadron Leaders and 1 CAG. This also supports a 80 viper force as squadrons are around 20 vipers.

Pegasus' complement of 6-8 squads and 180 Vipers makes sense also. 8 Active and 1 Reserve squadron of 20 Vipers each adds up to 180 total.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
They could use a rotational system, one set of Vipers pre-mounted in the launch bay, ready for instant launch, and another set on Deck, ready to be loaded? It could be that the 'Flight Deck' is, in truth, merely an area for repair and maintenance of bent birds?

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
...and there is no room at all in this loadout for Raptors and shuttles. Or, for that matter, forklifts, pallets of poorly-secured communications drones, captured Cylon raiders...

Shuttles are parked on the landing deck ( seen multiple times during the show ), they are way to big to be stored on the hangar deck.

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Offline Fish

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
I've just always assumed there's a huge amount of 'stuff' between the interior compartments and the outer plates. I mean, you've practically got the length of the launch tubes between the 'inside' and the 'outside'. No surprise when you notice how much the effects of a nuclear explosion are damped by the time they reach the interior.
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Offline FraktuRe

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
80 per pod seems like the most reasonable number, honestly.
Or something.
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Offline Demitri

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
I would agree with the 80 per pod for a fully manned wartime complement. How does that compare to ships of similar size to galactica, in other universes, ie SW, FS, WC etc?
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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
80 per pod, 20 vipers per squadron, its how it looks, i mean galactica had one squad of vipers left on board during the attack and they where taken out while on patrol.

however limiting  the ship to only 40 per flight pod is kinda silly, i mean at the moment they probably have more vipers than we can see since lee would of left all the vipers from peg with the civys. galacticas pods are pritty big, and remember we have only seen the level under the flight deck. they would shurley have further storage space for the other vipers on levels below the hanger.

the set we see is only part of the hanger, i mean its at least 40 tubes long but could easly span the entire length of the pod, we dont see it all because there are lifts between the various sections of hanger deck. this is done to save money, if they have to show extended section they slap it in with cgi

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
80 per pod, 20 vipers per squadron...

Adama said in the Mini to Starbuck, that "there's a entire Squadron on the starboard pod".
They had 40 Vipers, so i guess it's 40 per squadron.
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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
you cant take everything said on the show literally.
im using the 20 number from the fact that galacticas only functioning squadron of vipers was already off out and about. and it looked to be no more than 20 mk VII vipers.
galactica was an old ship so they wouldnt need more than a squadron givin her age, converstion to museam and the fact the was operating deep in colonial space.

in operating terms you could have four active squadrons of 20, each with a wing of 5 vipers and further vipers and squads

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized.  A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft.  Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod.  Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods.  Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.

Now that's the kind of logic and comparison I was thinking of.  You could assume the 80 was only because of the ship being turned into a museum.  The normal peacetime compliment would be much higher and a full blown war loadout could be many times larger especially for reserves.  Think stacking reserve ships in a nose to tail WWWW type formation and 400 would seem like a low number. 
It's bollocks - no logic at all.  As far as I recall,  WWII carriers didn't have 40 catapults internal to the hull, didn't have well over 100 twin barrel CIWS batteries, life support systems for operation in zero atmoshere, lifts to the landing deck that had to pass through enormous airlocks, enough fuel and ammunition stores to last the unsupported deployment of upto nine years (as evidenced by Galactia's water system), have artificial gravity systems and so on.

The hangars are very small - a tiny proprtion of the pods.  80 Vipers to a Galactica class sounds right.  We know they had four squadrons, and the boards in the crew rooms have spaces for about 20 pilots per squadron, which is realistic.  You do not have squadrons of 40 aircraft - thats a wing.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
You really think that Galactica had 40 Vipers per pod? :confused:

The boards in the crew rooms aren't much use as we've only ever seen the Galactica after one of the pods was decommissioned anyway.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
You really think that Galactica had 40 Vipers per pod? :confused:

The boards in the crew rooms aren't much use as we've only ever seen the Galactica after one of the pods was decommissioned anyway.

Yeah, the crew room on the Pegasus wasn't much bigger, and the beast did have a larger fighter complement.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized.  A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft.  Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod.  Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods.  Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.

Now that's the kind of logic and comparison I was thinking of.  You could assume the 80 was only because of the ship being turned into a museum.  The normal peacetime compliment would be much higher and a full blown war loadout could be many times larger especially for reserves.  Think stacking reserve ships in a nose to tail WWWW type formation and 400 would seem like a low number. 
It's bollocks - no logic at all.  As far as I recall,  WWII carriers didn't have 40 catapults internal to the hull, didn't have well over 100 twin barrel CIWS batteries, life support systems for operation in zero atmoshere, lifts to the landing deck that had to pass through enormous airlocks, enough fuel and ammunition stores to last the unsupported deployment of upto nine years (as evidenced by Galactia's water system), have artificial gravity systems and so on.

The hangars are very small - a tiny proprtion of the pods.  80 Vipers to a Galactica class sounds right.  We know they had four squadrons, and the boards in the crew rooms have spaces for about 20 pilots per squadron, which is realistic.  You do not have squadrons of 40 aircraft - thats a wing.

WWII Essex carriers bristled with 20mm orelikons, 40mm Bofors and 5 inch dual purpose guns while not as impressive as Galactica's rows of CIWS it is not inconsiderable.  In addition they carried fuel for themselves and their airwing plus all the ordinance for her defense guns and her stikecraft (aircraft ordinance that probably exceeds what we have seen in BSG since how often are Vipers loaded with bombs and torpedoes?), boilers, engines, berths, stores, etc. In a space that is 872 ft long 93 wide and 43ft draught.  Compared to a Galactica pod that is 2018 feet in length 361 feet wide and 210 high (this is probably the toughest number the quantify since most of it is actually the flight deck cover).  On the Galactica model the cats are roughly 70m, 210 feet which means the remaining space to fit the hangar deck is roughly 150 feet at the beam.  Even if we gave 50 ft to armor that still leaves a space roughly 100 feet long to fit her hangar and whatever else.  That is still wider then the entire width of an Essex class carrier.

While it is true the pods might be chalk a block full of aviation fuel, ordinance, life support and gravity generators, we don't know that it is either or how much space it takes up.  Her life support and aviation fuel might be piped in from the main hull, in addition the majority of her ordinance maybe in the magazines in her main hull as well.  We've seen them ship 40 Vipers across from one pod to the other in minimal time so it is entirely possible they maintain minimal ordinance and fuel storage in the pods and resupply as needed.  It makes sense in a way that the pods are perhaps the most exposed part of the ship and turning them into to massive potential bonfires full of bombs and fuel might be avoided, especially if they can quickly ship in stuff from her main hull.  We also don't know the extent of the machinery that powers her cats either.  The steam driven ones on modern carriers are massive beasts,  on the other hand the USN has investigated different space saving technologies such as electro magnates in order to get away steam cats.  The Colonial catapults might be a fairly compact.  Point is we've never even seen Galactica's engine room, so making assumptions that the equipment and machinery in the pod that need only support her flight ops, and CIWS is so massive is it takes up nearly all the space in her pods is something neither you nor I can say with finality.

They might only have a strip no wider then a 2 lane road to fit Vipers in, and I will concede that that is a possibility.  Quite frankly its true that without a firm grasp on her technology which RDM merrily refuses to provide we have no idea what her inards look like.  On the other hand I could probably float an Essex class carrier; which was a warship that contained all machinery and stores to power itself, house its crew, defend itself and sustain 110 aircraft , through one of the pods.  I personally can't really believe the Galactica carries less fighters between two such pods. 


* I have not seen season 4, however, LTC informs me a considerable amount of her inner workings were recently revealed.  I'm not sure if that has made my arguments null and void, if so then I concede the debate, otherwise I will let them stand
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 01:09:23 pm by StarSlayer »
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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
The idea galactica could not hold more than 40 vipers per pod is a bit silly, i mean she has ample space in each pod to accomadate far more, plus raptors.

here is a side view of galactica

red indicates the lifts to the flight deck
green is the space availiable on the deck beyond the launch tubes
yellow is the space availaible directly beneath the hanger




the vipers are not much bigger than the fighters in the below picture taken on board an essex class carrier
vipers can be stored quite close to each other , like the fighters in the below picture, tyrols crew would only need the deck for fighters that are in need of work, various craft can be put into storage. i mean where do you think all galacticas vipers are when we see parts of the hanger deck ?? many times we will see the deck empty bar one raptor etc. for a military vessle im shure she is able to handle quite a large fighter group


 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
What about storage not in the pods?  At the rapid rate they were able to move them from the "gift shop" into the other pod there has to be an easy way to transport them between the pods.  You would think that would be a storage/maintenance area of some sort for the Vipers.   
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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
indeed, the truth is they could store ships in the middle to. there are many parts of the ship we have not seen. there are also many lower levels.

 

Offline Lt.Cannonfodder

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Re: Battlestar Fighter Complements
* I have not seen season 4, however, LTC informs me a considerable amount of her inner workings were recently revealed.  I'm not sure if that has made my arguments null and void, if so then I concede the debate, otherwise I will let them stand
Nothing that renders your arguments null since the revealed part of the ship is not related to this discussion, but it does give us nice clues how big certain machineries aboard the ship are.