Author Topic: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10  (Read 12597 times)

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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
That's pretty much the case.  Except it would have been an unofficial patch via a mod.  The only mention of additional content was the use of the patch mod to add the best of the fan made material for multiplayer validation. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 06:08:59 pm by FUBAR-BDHR »
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Offline Whitelight

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
I`ve been watchin the progress and up to the final release of the babylon project.  i know i`m not well known, and have not been in any projects in a very long time.
The upkeep of this mod has been up to standard as for single player....  thats me.

Even though I do not do mulitiplayer I would still stand for it to be there, because that opens up a new fan base for this mod.

 Isn`t it all about the fan base?
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
Isn`t it all about the fan base?

In a project such as this, that's exactly correct.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
one would hope.
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Offline Whitelight

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
Then hope I will.   :)

(edit)  Sounds like a time out is in order.

That may give some perspective to the current issues.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 08:11:01 pm by Whitelight »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
well, if Icefire is willing to mediate this thing that brings things up a few notches, he's one of the best diplomats in HLP.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Whitelight

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
Yes he is very good at that indeed.  :)

(edit) He probably has a full plate, at this time tho, and he does live a very active life.

I like to think outside the box, well, give it some time.. Its not as bleak as it may seem.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 11:15:36 pm by Whitelight »
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Offline Slasher

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
I'm not very up to date on TBP or SCP machinations anymore, but would this hypothetical patch be geared mainly towards extending multiplayer support or would it have a noteworthy impact on past, present, and future singleplayer material?

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
Mainly mutliplayer although it would help people wanting to develop in 3.6.10 and future builds.  The point of making it a mod is that it could be turned off so any existing material would still work without the need to be updated.  Again I give my though process of this like TBP 3.4b = FS2 retail.  The patch mod would be like the MediaVPs except it's mainly bug fixes not graphical enhancements.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
there are a number of issues with single player, but most of the more serious issues are more multi-player I believe.

and most of the changes are going to be so minor the end user won't notice them, i.e. they won't notice when the game doesn't crash.

TBP 3.4b = FS2 retail,
the patch = the FS2 1.2 patch made by volition shortly after they shipped the game,
some other mod that introduces higher poly models for ships = mediaVPs
this is a bugfix, not an upgrade, the only thing that might be a gray area would be something like fixing the shading on some of the models (some are fully smooth shaded or flat when they should be auto-faceted)

though there will likely be a large gross volume of data in the patch it will mostly have only minor changes from it's existing form. but these minor changes are enough to keep the game from walking off of arrays or other such things.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline IPAndrews

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
My position is set out clearly throughout this thread and I see no new evidence which makes me want to reconsider it. I have nothing more to add.
Also mediation has no baring on my decision to withdraw permission to use my work.
Be warned: This site's admins stole 100s of hours of my work. They will do it to you.

 

Offline Revan

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
My suggestions: 

The Icons. tbl should be edited.  As far as I see that, we have in the Core already some Icons, among other things league base or that Ja' Dul station which are not in the Icons. tbl inside.  That would be therefore only a tbl Edit. 

The ruins of fields which alternatively to the asteroids fields made will can, should revise become.  One does not see the ruins practically.  One could the vasudan, terran and shivan ruins retexturieren and for that verweden, should be should found let none, that new ruins would do handicrafts. 

Those would be two Dinger that could be managed quite simply. 

I personally naturally would be happy about further ships.  The Markaab, the Hyach, the Grome for example just as I think that it requires a few more Dilgar ships.  If it should come to Dilgar War Camps, they would fall out in the moment with only two ship types very monotonous.

To be sure I know that new ships are a more difficult procedure, and because I myself have no idea of the Modelling, I can make here naturally nothing. 

I can understand that the team has simply no more desire, on further official expansions.  I look at some demands also as exaggerated. 
I find to be sure that some Mods would be thoroughly valued it to be packed into an AddOn Patch.  Especially such, that change at the Core now really nothing, (as long as it not totally turned off are, like for example an import of Freespace ships). 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 05:14:54 am by Revan »

 
Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
I just read this entire thread and it is depressing to so so many with so much talent have such fundamental disagreements .

Any mod or patch update that breaks the previous install and missions is going to add to confusion.  I am just a casual gamer and having a different install directory for each build and each mod is possable but not really the best solution.  In the end we will all have 20 install directories for each update/mod/bug fix, all incompatible with each other.  How do you explain that to new people that want to try TBP?   The amount of effort and work put into currently finished campaigns will all be lost of if a new install brakes them.  Beta testing is a time investment, every update/mod/bug fix will require someone to play through all existing campaigns and scenarios to see if they still work with the new code.   It sounds like an endless cycle of beta testing.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
You've clearly misread or misunderstood.

The patches/updates we're talking about do (should) not break anything, on the contrary. The patches would only fix existing TBP data bugs, which would in the end improve TBP's stability and future compatibility with fs2_open, fred2_open and FS2NetD (multiplayer). The said patch can be done as a single .vp file, which can be disabled/enabled easily should there be any need to. Also, the nature of fixes we're talking about here would rarely affect actual gameplay and thus require very little beta-testing. Beta-testing of which won't be TBP's responsibility, but whoever makes the fix.

The bottom line is that those bugfix patches that the community is supposedly not allowed to make, would make end-user experience better in the long run and allow a more stable platform for future campaigns and missions.

 
Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
I guess I misunderstood actually,
So really we are talking more like 3.6.9a, 3.6.9b, etc.etc..

 

Offline IPAndrews

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
No PSI-KILLER has understood Exactly.

The members of the TBP team wanted to wrap up in order to move onto other things, because we had achieved what we wanted to do, but also for the reasons PSI-KILLER described. Having one FINAL release makes it very easy for the casual gamer. They download the game. They play it. They don't need to worry about patches which may or may not work, and may or may not break earlier content. They don't need to worry about figuring out how to work the mod system. They just play. Plus it gives mission designers a static target to develop for instead of a moving one. It's an enormous advantage.

The work Flipside suggested is an enormous update (see my comments on Flipsides specifics). Even hardcore TBP revivalist Bobboau has admitted the patch would be huge. I worked for TBP for years, as technical manager, as co-project leader, as solitary project leader - twice. I know what's involved. They are trying to pass it off as a minor tweak and it's simply dishonest. I would go as far as calling this TBP 4.0. It requires a development team and a ton of beta testing. A restart of the project.

In spite of my team's wishes - I actually gave them an opportunity to prove to me there was a damn good reason for this! Talk about going out of one's way to be reasonable. I asked Flipside to give me detailed specifics. I looked at the evidence with an open mind but saw nothing except vague responses. There are things that - might - potentially be a problem, multiplayer might not work, we can't give specifics but we'd d like to fix anyway. Karajorma has also admitted TBP isn't really buggy. The SCP team see warnings? So what! We know there were some warnings for programmers running debug. Not for end users running retail :). Sometimes it was a case of inconveniencing programmers instead of gamers.

The bottom line is the end user experience in 3.6.9 is excellent. The end user experience in multiplayer though it has some very minor game engine related (not TBP!) niggles is also excellent. All 3.6.10 has to do is maintain backward compatability and run TBP as well as it runs under 3.6.9!

Their justification for an update was so far outweighed by the negatives, the disrespect to the team's wishes, enormous risks with few guarantees about testing, support, or backward/forward compatability and so few concrete benefits... it was a very easy decision to come to. It was absolutely the right decision to come to. It's project management 101. Huge risk + negative or no reward = rejected project proposal

This whole affair has indeed been very depressing. The problem for me is that - for the most part - this thread seems to be only visited by die hard TBP revivalists whose longing to see TBP updated is overriding common sense. They simply aren't willing to accept anything except complete unconditional surrender to their demands. I even said I would not accept their patch in it's "full" form (check the quote!), suggesting room for negotiation? How was that received? Badly. This "my way or the highway" attitude and the utter disrespect they have shown me and my team as was has only served to further reduce my trust in these people. Trust being vital in this.

There is no way back now. Hence the decision I made to withdraw my work which Vidmaster in a display of real maturity has respected and I know Tomcat (responsible for most of the models in TBP) agrees with.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 08:35:04 am by IPAndrews »
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Offline Fury

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
And that's that then. Continuing this topic does not seem to be fruitful, thus I'm closing it. Both sides of the argument will have to live with the current situation, unless new turn of events will be revealed later.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
I'd just like to add one final thing.  This was the last discussion by the TBP Team on the subject and what was stated to be done with it:

Well Fury persuaded me to post this. I was prepared to not bother and just get on with it. The plan at this time is as follows:

1) Wait for Mav to finish his nasty fluid dynamics exams.
2) Wait for Mav to clear his desk of any WIP models.
3) Wait for Mav to make a new Vorlon Dreadnaught. I'm not happy about that one :(
4) Fury and I will buiild a beta release.
5) Beta testing using a handful of diehard TBP fans from the forums.
6) Final release.

Provided there are no issues with the final release TBP will then be finished. A public development forum will be set up for those in the wider community who wish to work on TBP further. Which could include any of you guys who suddenly retake an interest sometime in the future. The private forums will be merged into one at least. I am tempted to do away with them entirely since they will have become redundant.

If anyone has a problem with any of this by the way please speak up. I'm assuming the deafening silence here is a green light.

Well there you go.

At this point I am going to ask that the new public development forum be set up for the purpose of continuing TBP by the public as was the wish of the TBP Team.  Ironic that IP was then one who made that post in the first place. 
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Concepts/Rules for fan-created update to TBP for SCP 3.6.10
Well folks...despite some kind words about my diplomatic skills I have failed everyone by not being able to reach any sort of agreement.

Basically the situation is unresolvable.  Various groups threatening to remove their content from the project makes this an impossible situation as no matter what happens the project is going to be damaged or outright destroyed. This is not what I wanted when we started this but it doesn't rest in just one persons hands.  It rests in all of our hands...it should not rest in the hands of just one person.  But unfortunately a couple of you make this impossible to resolve.

I'm disappointed that there is ego and arrogance where there should be understanding and reconciliation.  I'm disapointed that some people feel that the project is over and never to be started again.  I'm disappointed that this is the result of many hard years of work.

This is unfortunately where things have lead us and unfortunately there is little more I can do about it.  The accusations and arguments are unbecoming of the spirit of co-operation and co-ordination that we once had.

That leaves us with what steps to take next.  I'd ask people to drop or hold your threats of removing your content from the project as to go any further on this path will tear the project apart no matter what state its in. I'd ask for cooler heads to prevail over time.  Old wounds can be healed but right now they are too fresh.

For now I think the most appropriate action is to respect the wishes of the original TBP team.

I'd also like to ask that this thread be permanently locked.  I apologise for re-opening it one more time but I felt that was better than opening a new thread and causing any further inflamation.

For now we'll let this one be.

EDIT: I had forgotten to copy in a paragraph that I had written...it has been added above.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 05:34:28 pm by IceFire »
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