[terran_emperor]

The thing that doesn't add up for me is. If Bosch is an allied operative, why is the GTVA standing by and willfully sending their own pilots and marines into combat with a force they created themselves, unnecessary waste of money and life IMO.

A good commander knows what pieces to sacrifice. If in the Long run ETAK saves the Terran and Vasudan Races (Likely numbering in the Trillions and being British I'll Put that in Long Scale where One Trillion = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 10¹⁸), then the leaders have no trouble  sending countless millions of marines, officers and pilots to their deaths. Basically is a numbers game. Cold unsympathetic numbers. Sacrifice Millions (10⁶) to save LS Trillions (10¹⁸)

[Commander Zane]

Although during the course of the entire war the casualties total up to a massive number anyway.
And depending on what the Capella incident was exactly like (Whether or not planets were inhabited and couldn't evacuate) the entire thing might not even be worth it.

[Dilmah G]

Although during the course of the entire war the casualties total up to a massive number anyway.
And depending on what the Capella incident was exactly like (Whether or not planets were inhabited and couldn't evacuate) the entire thing might not even be worth it.

Yes, but the GTVA weren't planning on that whole series of events. My guess, is that they had deep-cover high-ranking operatives aboard the Iceni, and they would signal when the device was complete/proven and the GTVA would come in and nab the Iceni. But we all know that plan would've been cut short anyway with everyone being slaughtered etc.

[Mobius]

Uhm...

1) Why would the GTVA start something that is likely to compromise its own integrity? Are you aware of what the NTF did to the Alliance?

2) What about "The GTVA let the Iceni escape because they were unaware of its firepower?". What's the point in facing a warship whose capabilities might overwhelm yours? Also, be advised that, at the beginning, the GTVA considered ETAK a weapon of mass destruction and not actually a way to communicate with the Shivans.

3) Who said that an eventual capture of Bosch would have been crucial? There surely was someone powerful enough to replace him...say whatever you want on the effect his capture would have had, but still...

4) More importantly, what was the point in dividing the fleet when the Shivans appeared? It wasn't another rebellion, guys...there were Shivans threatening GTVA space, do you really believe that keeping the rebellion up would have helped? With all due respect, I doubt it;

[Lucika]

Uhm...

1) Why would the GTVA start something that is likely to compromise its own integrity? Are you aware of what the NTF did to the Alliance?

2) What about "The GTVA let the Iceni escape because they were unaware of its firepower?". What's the point in facing a warship whose capabilities might overwhelm yours? Also, be advised that, at the beginning, the GTVA considered ETAK a weapon of mass destruction and not actually a way to communicate with the Shivans.

3) Who said that an eventual capture of Bosch would have been crucial? There surely was someone powerful enough to replace him...say whatever you want on the effect his capture would have had, but still...

4) More importantly, what was the point in dividing the fleet when the Shivans appeared? It wasn't another rebellion, guys...there were Shivans threatening GTVA space, do you really believe that keeping the rebellion up would have helped? With all due respect, I doubt it;

I have to repeat it again...
1) The GTVA didn't want to create a rebellion. Theur plan was no more than getting he rebellious persons together. Unfortunately, the good old snowball effect came and a full-scale rebellion began.
2) What? Don't understand. Read my posts again, even I say that the GTVA didn't know what ETAK is. Only the highest ranking officers who created this ruse, but they had to allow a fake SOC mission while the involved personnel didn't know yet what ETAK is.
3) Koth killed, Bosch killed... the "superweapon" is gone... you cannot say that this wouldn't have had an effect on the NTF.
4) Same as no. 1.


And I really offer you to take a look on my idea about the Colly.

[Mobius]

Eh?

1) So it's plausible for you to muster the bad guys? As far as I know whole governments defected to the NTF...how many thousand bad guys did the GTVA thow in? Also, why would the inhabitants of Sirius, Regulus and Polaris follow those bad guys arrived from nowhere instead of their well deserved politicians?

The NTF's first struggle was finding supporters. Bosch himself claimed that he didn't really hate the Vasudans, but the anti-Vasudan aspect of Neo Terran ideals was pivotal;

2) Dude, even the 53rd Hammerheads knew what ETAK was probably like...and as far as I'm concerned, they weren't SOC units or such - ergo nearly everyone in the GTVA fleet knew that the NTF was developing something called "ETAK" and the chances that it was a weapon of mass destruction were surely high;

3) This is to be split into two:

a) Rear Admiral Koth didn't die in Deneb, when the Iceni escaped. Useless to say that he was a Rear Admiral, not a Vice or "full" Admiral, so even if his attack on Epsilon Pegasi was successful and well placed you have no reason to point Koth out as the "second in command" of the NTF.

Other capship commanders, like the CO of the Cyrene (flagship of the Sirius fleet), probably had a lot more importance and would have replaced Bosch if the leader was killed or captured;

b) You're giving for sure that everything about ETAK was stored on the Iceni. I don't quite believe it's plausible, especially by following the "weapon of mass destruction" theory/suspect;

4) Same reply as 1) with a nice and clear addition...if we mention the Shivans, your theory loses even more plausibility...

[Lucika]

Eh?

1) So it's plausible for you to muster the bad guys? As far as I know whole governments defected to the NTF...how many thousand bad guys did the GTVA thow in? Also, why would the inhabitants of Sirius, Regulus and Polaris follow those bad guys arrived from nowhere instead of their well deserved politicians?

The NTF's first struggle was finding supporters. Bosch himself claimed that he didn't really hate the Vasudans, but the anti-Vasudan aspect of Neo Terran ideals was pivotal;

2) Dude, even the 53rd Hammerheads knew what ETAK was probably like...and as far as I'm concerned, they weren't SOC units or such - ergo nearly everyone in the GTVA fleet knew that the NTF was developing something called "ETAK" and the chances that it was a weapon of mass destruction were surely high;

3) This is to be split into two:

a) Rear Admiral Koth didn't die in Deneb, when the Iceni escaped. Useless to say that he was a Rear Admiral, not a Vice or "full" Admiral, so even if his attack on Epsilon Pegasi was successful and well placed you have no reason to point Koth out as the "second in command" of the NTF.

Other capship commanders, like the CO of the Cyrene (flagship of the Sirius fleet), probably had a lot more importance and would have replaced Bosch if the leader was killed or captured;

b) You're giving for sure that everything about ETAK was stored on the Iceni. I don't quite believe it's plausible, especially by following the "weapon of mass destruction" theory/suspect;

4) Same reply as 1) with a nice and clear addition...if we mention the Shivans, your theory loses even more plausibility...

1) Imagine that you are the leader of the GTVA. You want to find the bad guys. How would you do it?
"Struggle?" You contradict yourself. Whole goverments and such!

2) As I stated, the low-ranking officers thought that ETAK is a weapon and the high guys knew that it is a comm device - and the source of the info was Bosch.

3/1) It WOULD have helped a lot, you must admit that. If the GTVA would ignore the possibility of killing Bosch, then they would've agreed with him at the depot. But since he was their agent, this couldn't happen.

3/2) I just quote:"All right, pilot. I've got some good news and some bad news. Good news is the Iceni has been destroyed along with Admiral Bosch and the ETAK project, whatever that was. "

4) Same reply as 1) with a nice and clear addition: the GTVA didn't want to create a rebellion!!!! It was the snowball effect.

[Mobius]

1) Do you think that everyone would join the NTF without a valid reason to do it? The GTVA had certain technological superiority also also overwhelmed the NTF by the numbers. If you don't have anything to believe, like the ideals of Neo-Terra and the anger towards the Vasudans, then you would never fight for the guys who're surely going to lose.

Please clarify your opinions so that it'd be easier for me and the others to understand it;

2) That is hard of believe. Until "Rebels&Renegades" there was no chance of finding out what the ETAK project really was about, ergo everyone suspected that it was a weapon of mass destruction. The GTVA might have let the Iceni go probably because of this fearsome evenience;

3)

a) It would have helped, no doubt about it, but facing a ship whose capabilities (even without ETAK) are unknown is not a good move. You need to get your facts right;

b) It's possible to give for sure that everything about ETAK was on the Iceni. That quote clearly proves that ETAK was housed on the Iceni, but it surely doesn't claim that with the destruction of the Iceni everything about ETAK is gone...

4) It might be a snowball effect but dude, the GTVA isn't made of stupid people! Those bad guys would have decided to stop their rebellion if needed...

At least, if the GTVA really had to muster all bad guys, they should also have had a way to keep them under control even in case of rebellion. Anything like "We've replaced a tooth of yours with a remotely activable device that'd kill you instantly if you don't behave well" would work. As I said, the GTVA head authorities aren''t made of stupid people;

[Commander Zane]

A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.

[Lucika]

A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.

1) Okay. Note that if Bosch IS an allied operative, then he could've helped them dealing with the rebs (he probably did by telling the rallyin point's whereabouts and with the run to the nebula itself - the whole reb fleet has been cramped)
2) The high officers knew everything about ETAK from Bosch,
3/a) A modified cruiser, no more. And, note the debriefing in R&R, Command isn't pleased when the Iceni is destroyed...
3/b) If Bosch didn't help the GTVA, then with the Iceni's destruction everything is gone of ETAK for the GTVA! If he did: they can be sad because they've lost their agent: Bosch.
4) Getting the bad guys together doesn't necessary mean that they'll revolt against you. It was U-N-E-X-P-E-C-T-E-D.

Please! Read my posts again! The ones at the 1st and 2nd pages!


(would anyone create a wiki article about that? )

[General Battuta]

Look, it's a fine theory. Go make a campaign about it or something. Then you can have a Wiki article.

Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.

[Lucika]

Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.

It's possible. I'd call it likely, too, but that's a personal decision for everyone.
I can continue arguing, but I only state that no one can circumvent the occasions where GTVA aided Bosch (check out the Colly post by me)

Well, no more posts except someone posts a question/wants to debate.

[Snail]

I agree about the GTVA helping Bosch but not about a few other things in your theory.

[General Battuta]

Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.

It's possible. I'd call it likely, too, but that's a personal decision for everyone.
I can continue arguing, but I only state that no one can circumvent the occasions where GTVA aided Bosch (check out the Colly post by me)

Well, no more posts except someone posts a question/wants to debate.

The simplest explanation for those events is what Snail has maintained for years: that the GTVA wanted to get their hands on ETAK.

[Lucika]

Nobody's going to accept it as a likely explanation of the events of FS2, however.

It's possible. I'd call it likely, too, but that's a personal decision for everyone.
I can continue arguing, but I only state that no one can circumvent the occasions where GTVA aided Bosch (check out the Colly post by me)

Well, no more posts except someone posts a question/wants to debate.

The simplest explanation for those events is what Snail has maintained for years: that the GTVA wanted to get their hands on ETAK.

It doesn't anwer, for instance, the depot case. If the GTVA wanted the ETAK (what they've thought to be a weapon), they would've agreed with Bosch.
And I still say that slaying the dragon's head is much more valuable than trying to get a possible weapon.
Note: "You might be wise to question the wisdom of your leaders" - they were foolish enough to create a rebellion...

[General Battuta]

Go make a campaign about it.

[Lucika]

Go make a campaign about it.

FS2 main campaign in a diferent interpretation? I might think about it...

[Mobius]

A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.

True, but this is not the point. "Weapon of mass destruction" doesn't sound like a communications device (although the Shivans always bring mass destruction ).

A communications device that allows communication with Shivans easily fits as a weapon.

1) Okay. Note that if Bosch IS an allied operative, then he could've helped them dealing with the rebs (he probably did by telling the rallyin point's whereabouts and with the run to the nebula itself - the whole reb fleet has been cramped)
2) The high officers knew everything about ETAK from Bosch,
3/a) A modified cruiser, no more. And, note the debriefing in R&R, Command isn't pleased when the Iceni is destroyed...
3/b) If Bosch didn't help the GTVA, then with the Iceni's destruction everything is gone of ETAK for the GTVA! If he did: they can be sad because they've lost their agent: Bosch.
4) Getting the bad guys together doesn't necessary mean that they'll revolt against you. It was U-N-E-X-P-E-C-T-E-D.

Please! Read my posts again! The ones at the 1st and 2nd pages!


(would anyone create a wiki article about that? )

Why did you qute Zane to reply to my post?

1) In order to find the rebel rallying positions you need nothing but scout wings and advanced arrays;

2) Who are you talking about? I'm refering to GTVA pilots and commanders, since they were the ones who let the Iceni escape. Bosch's subordinates have nothing to do with it;

3)

a) First of all, the Iceni is not a cruiser. It's been classified as a frigate, and please keep in mind that the frigate was hidden behind what appeared to be an asteroid base. This clearly means that an advanced weapon could have been housed there. We know for sure that the Iceni has 3 powerful anti-warship beam cannons which would have easily destroyed a medium-to-short blockade force. There was no point in risking a blockade force;

b) With the destruction of the Iceni the ETAK project is gone. It doesn't mean that all knowledge regarding it is gone as well, can you please take note of it? Bosch didn't spread the info, ok, but the GTVA did not know it;

4) I don't think it was unexpected. Also, you're pointing all NTF head members as criminals, which isn't good to hear. They reflected the lost ideals of the Lost Generation plus what, let's say it, every person who lost a beloved relative in the T-V War would think;

It doesn't anwer, for instance, the depot case. If the GTVA wanted the ETAK (what they've thought to be a weapon), they would've agreed with Bosch.
And I still say that slaying the dragon's head is much more valuable than trying to get a possible weapon.
Note: "You might be wise to question the wisdom of your leaders" - they were foolish enough to create a rebellion...

I think you didn't get the point of the depot case. As I said before, the GTVA didn't know wheter or not everything about ETAK (and not actually ETAK itself, I'm refering to its specs!) was housed on the Iceni. It was better to let Bosch keep control of the project instead of sacrificing ships attacking the Iceni (with a debatable outcome).

[Lucika]

I'll create a timeline today. From mission to mission.

[NGTM-1R]

The fact that so many of you categorically dismiss the time-honored "right hand vs. left hand" method of operation going on in the GTVA is slightly disturbing.

Sidenote: This ties in nicely with my theory that Bosch lied to the Shivans, resulting in the Capella supernova.

Bosch has, in the end, always been in this for the good of humanity, according to what he's said. Assuming he discovers that Shivans cannot be dissuaded from genocide, he instead lies to them regarding the GTVA's size, force structure, and capablities, painting what has come so far as mere border skirmish. The Shivans have never demonstrated much interest or capablity in the gathering of intelligence, so there are none to say him nay.

The end result is that the Shivans create the Capella supernova to give themselves breathing room against a non-existent superpower.