Author Topic: re annoucement  (Read 8226 times)

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Offline Vidmaster

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  • Inventor of FS2 bullettime ;-)
The game was released with the possibility to mod. Fact.
Devoted member of the Official Karajorma Fan Club (Founded and Led by Mobius).

Does crazy Software Engineering for a living, until he finally musters the courage to start building games for real. Might never happen.

 

Offline IPAndrews

  • Disgruntled Customer
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  • This site stole my work
My work is my work. Fact.

Use it without permission you are stealing. Fact.

You are desperately looking for ways to appease your own consciences because you have all abandoned your morals in order to get your own way. Fact.

Debating this with you thieves is a waste of time. Fact.
Be warned: This site's admins stole 100s of hours of my work. They will do it to you.

 

Offline captain-custard

  • previously known as andicirk
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your work is your work Fact

i agree

but at no point does your work mention that it cannot be used by third parties      Fact

this game is freely availible and as i mentioned before there are no restrictions mentioned within the game     Fact

your attitude of its my ball now im going home to sulk is completely unreasonable     Fact

i will now learn to fred and steal your work      Fact


one very pissed of TBP fan       Fact
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together."

 

Offline karajorma

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Use it without permission you are stealing. Fact.

You gave permission for mods when 3.4 Final was released. Fact.

You never claimed at the time you reserved the right to withdraw permission. Fact.

This is more about proving you're right than about the fans. Opinion.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

  

Offline Flipside

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I suspect it's certainly doing a great deal to convince the fans to do exactly what he doesn't want them to do. After all, it's them that he is accusing of being thieves, since they would be in control of the update.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Debating this with you ... is a waste of time. Fact.
I quite agree.

IPAndrews is now banned for 30 days for the following causes:
--Unjustified flaming of HLP admins, TBP members, SCP members, and innocent bystanders;
--Reckless sabotage of a project of which he is a member;
--Refusal to negotiate or accept mediation;
--Refusal to acknowledge the authority of the project leaders he appointed;
--And generally poisoning the atmosphere of HLP.

He's lucky he only escaped with a 30-day ban; some people, both admins and non-admins, wanted to make it permanent.  BlackDove was monkeyed for 30 days for far less.  Inquisitor was right; trying to negotiate with a prima-donna accomplishes nothing and only hurts the project.

Generally admins have the authority to ban someone unilaterally, but because of the number of issues raised and the potential conflicts of interest, this one was subject to a long discussion and an implicit majority vote.  Between admin action and the TBP announcement, we now consider the matter resolved.

I'd split the thread, but it seems like a lost cause, having jumped the rails with the second post.  If y'all want to discuss the announcement, I recommend starting a new thread, but I will leave this one open.

 

Offline ARSPR

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All this discussion is crazy...

OFFTOPIC suggestion:

I don't know if it is possible but I would force a HLP membership rule with the following text (remember English is not my mother language  ;)):

+ ALWAYS remember you are entering a free fan made site.

+ Because of this, you can enjoy, modify or use any of the posted content without any other restriction than not earning money with it. Also by joining to HLP, you EXPLICITLY allow any other people to use your own posted contents with the same rule.

+ Nevertheless, politeness MUST be worshiped. Although not "legally" needed, please, ask the author permission if you want to use any content in a different way from his original intention (you're going to edit it, you are going to create a new mod/campaign/mission, you are going to fix or patch it, or whatever...). And also, don't hide its origin, NEVER say that it's yours when it isn't.

If possible I would even force ALL the active members to renew their accounts with this explicit rule. Maybe in this way, this discussion won't be repeated any more
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline Goober5000

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That is what karajorma is trying to accomplish with this thread. :)

An agreement will not be forced on any project, but in light of what happened with BTRL and TBP, it might make sense for certain projects to adopt that agreement or something like it.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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We'll most likely have something like it for the fan made mods as well. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Inquisitor

The genie is out of the bottle.

If, in his wisdom, IPA decides that its a good idea to play a legal card, he really should talk to a lawyer first. Chances are good he'd be in just as much warm water. Nobody needs that kind of headache.

People who contribute to projects only to rescind their "license" later for what seem to be petty reasons tend not to get to far in any future development efforts without a lot of apologies. I don't run HLP projects, but I would think twice about engaging with IPA regardless of whatever talent he may have.

Nobody needs that kind of headache.

I'd suggest the first order of business for any fans be that they rip out and replace anything with this persons name on it and replace it with something explicitly freely given. Nobody needs that kind of headache. Remove all traces. Persona non gratis. No sense in tainting the product any longer than necessary. Nobody's work is that good.

Prima donna developers need to know they are replaceable. So get about the business of replacing him.

Damn shame that something that got so much good press, that SO MANY people worked on, ends up in a cloud of sophomoric antics on the part of its erstwhile caretaker.  That's the definition of conceited.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 08:52:19 pm by Inquisitor »
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Offline tinfoil

  • i'm 13 remember
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Wow. I really just want to bonk your heads together. Especially IPAndrews.  I wish i knew what set this off but i'm sure it wouldn't make any more sense. Like most other FSers i will miss TBP and wish it hadn't ended this way. what i truly hope is that nothing legal comes of this and that no one takes this as inspiration to pull this kind of stunt again. I know i'm a little late here but i just wanted to put in my two cents.
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Everything you need to know, and more can be found at The Freespace Wiki

 

 

Offline Goober5000

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i will miss TBP and wish it hadn't ended this way
TBP isn't going away.  That's kinda what this whole thing was about.  Read the stickied announcement.

 

Offline Mongoose

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What I find most amusing about the end result of all this is the notion that one would be able to rescind content that one previously released to the general public.  I mean...it's the friggin' Internet.  If you host a file at a visible, public website, anyone and everyone can download it and do whatever the hell they want with it, and there's not a damn thing you can do to stop them.  It's like the warning on that ancient Welcome to the Internet page about posting your picture online.  If you don't want your creation used by someone, don't post it to begin with.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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You know I tried that point over and over.  It was actually even discussed before Vid and I took over as moderators.  The rules thread was the eventual result.  It was a way to try to organize the chaos of modding that the final release would bring.  My logic.  It's out there people are going to mod it.  Let's try to make it beneficial and easy for everyone to use while keeping 3.4b final.   
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline ARSPR

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We'll most likely have something like it for the fan made mods as well. 

Well in fact, I think that there are ONLY fan made mods...

I mean, WCS, Diaspora, SoL, FSPort, Inferno or whatever "official" teams are just a bunch of guys who say "let's join efforts for making a mod about our beloved xxxxxx ". And then, they just put a team label on top. You can call it "official" if you want, but it really seems just "organized" unofficialness.

So I really think it's just the same than just one guy (let's say Darius' BP) making it.

In all the cases, everyone modding FS2 will be using previously released stuff (more or less amount but always some amount of it):
+ Just the mod world idea. Nobody here has invented WCS, FS, SoL, Star Wars universes...
+ The game engine...
+ Previous mission/ship/tables drafts...
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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I'm talking specifically for the new TBP public development. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
I think there are a few things lost on IPAndrews.

IPAndrews often said "My work".
But it isn't just his work. It's the work of the team.
IPA was the leader, but still others also worked on TBP, so it isn't just "his work".
And let's not forget all the stuff he used to make "his work" came from the SCP and volition in the first place.
Using someone else's stuff, changing it and then calling it his own work... THAT is theft.

...I'll refrain from setting a "fact" behind anything. Just putting the word fact behind a sentence doesn't make it any more true than it is without it.


And please don't take the following comment as flame or diss, I'm dead serious about this and I only say this because I hope to help a person I grew to respect over the years.
IPA you should visit a psychatrist. From where I am it looks like you are suffering from a severe depression and most people can't get out of that without help (I know that from experiance in my own family).

I hope I didn't go too far with this comment, but as I said I am actually hoping to help, even though it is just a faint hope.

 

Offline rbxplayer

  • 27
  • A bit tight with RL at the moment
Guys,

IPAndrews just got emotional. It will pass. I am sure of it.

In his attempts to prove his point, ie keep TBP on 3.6.9 so that it will be easy for the newcomers to play with, he lost his way.

He then made a statement in the heat of the moment and is keeping with it.

I agree with the decision of keeping the 3.4b downloads easily available and the Child forum for future development.

This is a solution that accomodates IP Andrews fears whilst leaves the door open for fans to play around the further development of TBP;
a. New users have an easily accessible stable build
b. Fans can build on 3.6.10

It is normal that when someone gets passionate on something, he gets emotional. I have that defect myself.

Permanent blocking should never be considered in a fan community. We should welcome the prodigal sons with arms wide open.

After all, he was just trying to help... then something went awfully wrong... **** happens....
Ijja l-mewt li taghmilna bnedmin jew l-imhabba?

 

Offline The E

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First of all he isn't permabanned. Second, read Goober's post again. Whatever his reasons may be, none of them excuse this kind of behavior. Getting emotional is understandable. Not calming down and not accepting attempts to be calmed down isn't.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline tomcat

  • Dark Lord of Truespace
  • 28

Prima donna developers need to know they are replaceable. So get about the business of replacing him.


Actually is impossible... Not in this case ... IP work is irreplaceable...
You have to know something about TBP team dynamics... Team ... such a big work

PM 101.. primadonna are not replaceble ... u can do it... but it cost ya... can u handle the cost?
Truespace is the path of the Dark Side
-----------------------------------------------
Dark Truespace Master Tomcat