[Charismatic]

Time for a insanely long and very mis spelled post. I actually am dreading typing All this up.... But good luck reading it.
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I know what you mean.  Sometimes, I don't feel comfortable with some parts, mostly letters written by Paul and Peter and guys who WEREN'T Jesus, telling us what to believe.  One of these days, I'm going to go through the gospels and find what Jesus actually teaches, and not all the fluff these guys add.

Fluff? The words they spoke and wrote are all fine and inspired by God. They (paul etc) were Jesus' disciples, learning day and night from him alone. Their words should be trusted as well. The bible is the word of god. Everything written was written by men who were directed and inspired by god. What they spoke is just as powerful and meaningful as what Jesus himself spoke. Tho Jesus words have more significance and power. Im not contradicting myself, im just trying to show that the whole bible beyond what Jesus spoke, is not vastly insignificant.

not only does your interpretation condemn everyone who has had the bad fortune to be born more than, say, 3000 years ago

I heard this argument a long long time ago. I cannot remember the specifics. But I think its something like this: Because Jesus hadent come yet, they wernt responsible for not believing. And they will be personally judged by god himself, and he will judge their hearts and deeds. An example of gods grace.

but also all the genuinely good people around today who happen to be Muslims, Buddhists, Shintoists or Atheists. And all that because they do not believe in the same version of the Saviour as you? I'm sorry, but your world doesn't seem to be a particularly happy place to live in.

Everyone knows this is a messed up world. Happyness as well as suffering. And read what i said. If they havent heard the message, Jesus, they can still get into heaven. Its up to God. Those that refuse to believe, most if not all go to hell. But this is my belief. We cannot prove this, as stated, its up to god.

To be fair, theirs one version, gods version of the truth. Unfortunately every man gets it wrong, even if one 'version' of belief is the closest. Were not perfect.

Quote from: Charismatic
Ghosts are demons.

According to what?  Your own interpretation?  Does that make the Holy Ghost a demon?  I claim (how do you do the 'citation needed' thing?).

According to what I have learned and what I know. I have read the bible as well as several other books.
Think about all the TV'shows such as ghost hunters, movies, stories, books, or online vids you have seen about ghosts. What are their traits? Do they make us happy, do they help us? What do they do?
They stay in houses, they make us afraid, they haunt us and the house. "This house is cursed", things move and scare us, or see dark images or bad things. People move Out of haunted houses, not in. Some people can get injured by them.
Fear, injury, curses, dark images... sound like God or a Godly thing? No. Sounds like a demonic thing, things from satan, demons. Its not a positive thing, its negative.
And the Holy Spirit has many other names as well. Thats how we describe him.  Jesus had a body, but we dont call the Father the Father Ghost do we?
The Holy Spirit is God, a being. Dosent really have a 'body' per se, so we described him as ghost. Hes not, he is god.

Catholics are indeed Christian.
Short history lesson:*SNIP*

Yes I know their history just fine. Im not denying their history. But what Most have become today is getting farther and farther from actually being Christian. Most Catholics today pray to Mary, as if she is his heavonly parent and has greather authority over Jesus. Like sayign "Mary please ask Jesus or tell him to bless us!"
Seriously, Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else. NOTHING to be prayed to. Catholics pray to the 'saints'. Peter and paul and everyone. Why!?
Jesus is all that matters. Pray directly to him.
This and many other problems i have with Catholics. They seem to belive less and less in Jesus. Half dont even think Jesus was real. Its not becoming christianity. Christianity is about Christ.

The question is: If someone knows (not suspects, knows) what you will do at any point in your life, do you actually make decisions, or do you just act according to a script?

You said it yourself. Its What You WIll Do. You had the choice to do it. God cannot mess with free will. As others said, he has 'backup plans' for everyones life for every time they dont choose the path God wants them to take. God can influence things tho. For a very fast example. A depressed man wants to kill himself. God does not want him to. God can cause something good to happen to  him the day before he planned to suicide. The man then sees some good in his life and chooses not to kill himself. God didnt make him not kill himself, it was the mans choice. We can continually choose our own way rather then gods way. God lets us do what we want. In the end if we let him God can have his will be done. I cant think of any ATM but i know there are examples of where god wanted something. People, or israle, chose differently. Bad things happened, and eventually things turned around and god had his way. We can choose our own path, or Gods.

God does, occasionally, intervene in the lifes of his followers.

God does many times a day. Hes everywhere, but it takes discernment to see him. It takes time and effort soem times, but you can learn how to see god work in your life. Gods always working in our lifes, we just dont always see him. Many times 'its the little things'.

Faith in Christ requires that I accept as true something I can not know is true.

You can, but it depends on when and how God god shows you. You first have to want to see and know. You have to let him into your life first, so he can begin to work in it and in you. And one day he will get through to you and show you. Many people have a personal relationship with God. Like me, he has proven himself to me time and time again. I have absolutely no dobut he exists and is in my life. Wether or not I see him working in my life constantly. Many people refuse to see or let god in.

I see it more as God seeing what actions someone could take, not what they necessarily will.  Sort of like playing chess, millions of moves in advance.  He is all-knowing, meaning not just what you will do, but whay you can do.

Yes.

Then, even if God is introduced, free will still exists.  Given your argument about acting according to a script, if I know that someone is going to die, or go to school, or something like that, does that mean they have no free will?

Exactly.

Another answer:  because of free will.  God chose his people, and they strayed from Him.  The incompatible versions are an expression of our free will.  We choose what we do, and believe

Yep.

So, free will condemned millions of people to hell because they believed in the wrong version of christianity?
But this assumes that somewhere out there is a true version of christianity.

Free will condems people to hell if they dont believe in Jesus.
As i said before, there is a true 'version'. Gods version. Unless God shows us in full, and clearly, we cannot know it perfectly. We can get as close as possible, or be wrong about of the details and such (between demonminations). All that matters is Jesus. Everything else is 'extra' and can help in your relationship with him.

What are the rewards of being a christian assuming the christian god is real?

I dont know specifics. But AFAIk, Forgiveness for all sins, Eternal life, 'a glorified body' (spiritual, non physical body), a 'house' or place in heaven. Some other...things. But a big reward will being with and near God. That last statement, there is involved in it. Dont know all specifics. I wont Try to say more unless asked to.

And what does "love the truth" mean here?

It is clear, very clear, that the truth, the message, the way, the light... is Jesus.  Jesus came to die for our sins, so that we can once again return to Gods sight and enter into heaven.

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I belive if you do not believe that Jesus is the son of god who came to take away the sins of the world, you go to hell. If you dont believe in him and in that, you do not receive that gift of forgiveness.

Yep.

What about the many cultures all over the world who lived for a long time without ever being exposed to Christianity, not to mention the true first religion was worshipping the sun and then greek gods after that and before Christianity and Judism? You can't say that these cultures who have their own religions and were secluded from western society and were never exposed to Christianty will go to hell. You call that merciful? Also, I don't think you go to hell if you never get baptised. Stop thinking black and white or in absolutes.

Read the whole topic, or at the least my replies. I already discussed that. I do call it merciful, because god 'thought' of that already. He judged them on their lives because Jesus had not come yet. And NO you Dont go to hell if your not baptized. I already said that..

It means i think you're a tad silly for living in this world and still believing there is some magical creator god who decides what to do with us after we die.

Not magic. As i said before, its perfectly logical to me. I have no dobut. I sometimes dont get why You guys dont see it. He is very real and very much alive and here. There is so much to learn and know about God and spiritual things. Dont judge me. I dont blaim you for not believing, not everyone will. One day your heart might be ready to look into him more. Maby then.

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Wow that wasent as bad as i thought it'd be.

[TrashMan]

Yes I know their history just fine. Im not denying their history. But what Most have become today is getting farther and farther from actually being Christian. Most Catholics today pray to Mary, as if she is his heavonly parent and has greather authority over Jesus. Like sayign "Mary please ask Jesus or tell him to bless us!"
Seriously, Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else. NOTHING to be prayed to. Catholics pray to the 'saints'. Peter and paul and everyone. Why!?
Jesus is all that matters. Pray directly to him.
This and many other problems i have with Catholics. They seem to belive less and less in Jesus. Half dont even think Jesus was real. Its not becoming christianity. Christianity is about Christ.

What are you on about man?
Catholics revere the saints, they don't worship them. They never were, are or will be even close to Jesus/God. Same goes for Mary.
People pry, asking them to intercede on their behalf, even moreso if said saints have been known as patrons of certain professions.
There's nothing wrong with that.
God and Jesus are definately number 1 in catholicism.
Now, if there are some who take that reverance toofar, I'd say it's their problem. But painting all of Catholics with such a wide brush is  redicolous to say the least.

[karajorma]

Yes I know their history just fine. Im not denying their history. But what Most have become today is getting farther and farther from actually being Christian. Most Catholics today pray to Mary, as if she is his heavonly parent and has greather authority over Jesus. Like sayign "Mary please ask Jesus or tell him to bless us!"
Seriously, Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else. NOTHING to be prayed to. Catholics pray to the 'saints'. Peter and paul and everyone. Why!?
Jesus is all that matters. Pray directly to him.
This and many other problems i have with Catholics. They seem to belive less and less in Jesus. Half dont even think Jesus was real. Its not becoming christianity. Christianity is about Christ.

What are you on about man?
Catholics revere the saints, they don't worship them. They never were, are or will be even close to Jesus/God. Same goes for Mary.
People pry, asking them to intercede on their behalf, even moreso if said saints have been known as patrons of certain professions.
There's nothing wrong with that.
God and Jesus are definately number 1 in catholicism.
Now, if there are some who take that reverance toofar, I'd say it's their problem. But painting all of Catholics with such a wide brush is  redicolous to say the least.

While I may disagree with Trashman about a great many things in this discussion he's spot on here. To claim that half of Catholics don't even believe in Jesus is ridiculous. You merely show your ignorance about Catholicism by doing so. 

Which makes the rest of your comments about it suspect at the very least.

[The E]

Okay.....So, here's a few questions:
1. Do Catholics go to heaven?
2. If everyone gets it wrong, you got it wrong, too. What protects you from eternal damnation?
3. What happened 2000 years ago that required Christs' presence? What changed?
4. What have catholics done to you? Again, what makes you sure that you are right and they are wrong?
5. You contradict yourself. There is this statement:

Everyone knows this is a messed up world. Happyness as well as suffering. And read what i said. If they havent heard the message, Jesus, they can still get into heaven. Its up to God. Those that refuse to believe, most if not all go to hell. But this is my belief. We cannot prove this, as stated, its up to god.

To be fair, theirs one version, gods version of the truth. Unfortunately every man gets it wrong, even if one 'version' of belief is the closest. Were not perfect.

and there is this:

Free will condems people to hell if they dont believe in Jesus.
As i said before, there is a true 'version'. Gods version. Unless God shows us in full, and clearly, we cannot know it perfectly. We can get as close as possible, or be wrong about a lot of the details and such (between demonminations). All that matters is Jesus. Everything else is 'extra' and can help in your relationship with him.

So....do they have to "accept" Jesus, or is it up to God? Could you clarify?

So, you believe in Jesus. That's allright. I get it. Yet there are other people out there who choose to follow the example set by mortal men and women who performed notable works in God's or Christ's name, because they find them to be more accessible than God's own son. What is so condemnable about that?

[Charismatic]

But painting all of Catholics with such a wide brush is  redicolous to say the least.

Yeah I know. I just have a lot of arguments against Catholics. But most of what I have heard and seen from catholics and when i attend catholic services confirm my beliefs and statements. The majority of my experiance and exposure to catholics showed me what i told you.

You merely show your ignorance about Catholicism by doing so.

Ignorance? I was raised catholic, my whole moms side of the family is catholic, and i go to a catholic service with them once every other month. I have seen enough to make the statements i made. Yes half is probably an exadgeration but i was making a point.

1. Do Catholics go to heaven?

I have gone over this. Its on a person by person basis, wether or not they believe in Jesus.

2. If everyone gets it wrong, you got it wrong, too. What protects you from eternal damnation?

Specific arguments such as baptism, gifts of the spirit, wether or not so and so is right or what version of the bible is right are all debated on. The one thing that isnt debated on is Jesus being the son of God sent to die for our sins. That I do not have wrong. I could talk for a long time on gifts of the spirit and healing and prophesy but some argue against it. Anything else but Jesus is the son of god who died for our sins, is extra, and can be debated.

3. What happened 2000 years ago that required Christs' presence? What changed?

Im unsure but IIRC, Man has been living in sin sence Adam and Eve. Sence then God promised to save us and send a savior, a messiah. God decided to send him then.

4. What have catholics done to you? Again, what makes you sure that you are right and they are wrong?

That would be a whole nother topic. And we would sidetrack too far IMHO. So ill leave that alone unless u ask again.

So....do they have to "accept" Jesus, or is it up to God? Could you clarify?

I told you the gist of it already. The basics have already been stated. I cannot guess what God will choose in various situations like that concerning their salvation. I only know what i have told you. Ill ask my dad sometime.

[Wobble73]

I suppose I would class myself as agnostic and believe myself to be a good person, does that get me into heaven?

I can believe in the notion that there MAY be a sentient cause to the universe. That maybe who is what ever created the universe may have directed it's growth, or evolution if you will. After all, at the moment we can almost predict the death of the universe , based on current observations and current theories. Maybe this GOD or creator, set this universe in motion as an huge experiment, could he create a finite universe and life with a will so strong to survive and a growing intelligence to fight the decline of the universe. Life evolves equally throughout the universe through evolution and reaching out to eventually form a universe wide alliance with high intelligence and technological knowledge to fight the ravages of the death of the universe. Then there will be our final judgement, can we fight the death of the universe, have we advanced far enough?



But so far there is no proof of any of this and none of the religions seem to say the right kind of thingfs.



*Edit* Just read back what I wrote, I sound like a damn Scientologist! ****! */Edit*


 

[Mika]

Even with the danger of facing incredible long posts with long metaphors,  I simply have to ask this:

Jesus is all that matters. Pray directly to him.

But but I thought he himself said exactly not to do that!

And also, it was taught to me that in Christianity you believe in Christ, God and Holy Spirit. But they are three separate things! So Christianity is not monotheistic.

My current view of religion is kind of shift in responsibilities. "I don't need to do something about it because that's the God's will!" I don't accept this kind of thinking personally, and I would actually react against it if more people would show this kind of behavior. Also, quite a lot of people detest any religion by looking at histories of the religions. Most of them claim to do good for individuals, but quite a lot of them have been used as a mind control tool by the people who had the power by that time to prevent useful changes from happening. In the end doing more harm to individuals.

Mika

[TrashMan]

But painting all of Catholics with such a wide brush is  redicolous to say the least.

Yeah I know. I just have a lot of arguments against Catholics. But most of what I have heard and seen from catholics and when i attend catholic services confirm my beliefs and statements. The majority of my experiance and exposure to catholics showed me what i told you.

Or you've seen what you wanted to see.
As soon as you start with some preconceptions about something, everything you see or observe related to it will be colored by those preconceptions.

The same action commited by person A will be interpreted differently by person B and C, if tehy have different preconception of what kind of person A is or what he is doing.

And also, it was taught to me that in Christianity you believe in Christ, God and Holy Spirit. But they are three separate things! So Christianity is not monotheistic.

They are actually the same thing. God in 3 different aspects if you will

[Polpolion]

Yes I know their history just fine. Im not denying their history. But what Most have become today is getting farther and farther from actually being Christian. Most Catholics today pray to Mary, as if she is his heavonly parent and has greather authority over Jesus. Like sayign "Mary please ask Jesus or tell him to bless us!"
Seriously, Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else. NOTHING to be prayed to. Catholics pray to the 'saints'. Peter and paul and everyone. Why!?
Jesus is all that matters. Pray directly to him.
This and many other problems i have with Catholics. They seem to belive less and less in Jesus. Half dont even think Jesus was real. Its not becoming christianity. Christianity is about Christ.

The people that you've met are not Catholics. If you are a Catholic, then you believe in Jesus. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you are not Catholic, or you aren't representing actual Catholic belief. I was hoping you'd do some research on this, they are indeed Christian.

Also, you are right about it being Christianity. Mary and the saints have nothing to do with being Christian. All that matters is if you believe in Jesus. In fact, praying to someone does not necessarily mean that you worship them or view them as a deity. It's like how atheist people can still say "thank goodness" or "good luck" or things like that, AFAIK.

[High Max]

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[maje]

We're all human, and we're bound to make mistakes, god or no.

What troubles me is how many otherwise rational adults find themselves still believing in fairy tales from books as if they're the truth.

Why do you assume that they are fairy tales?  Why would it be more rational to believe everything happened by chance?

[Mobius]

What are you on about man?
Catholics revere the saints, they don't worship them. They never were, are or will be even close to Jesus/God. Same goes for Mary.
People pry, asking them to intercede on their behalf, even moreso if said saints have been known as patrons of certain professions.
There's nothing wrong with that.
God and Jesus are definately number 1 in catholicism.
Now, if there are some who take that reverance toofar, I'd say it's their problem. But painting all of Catholics with such a wide brush is  redicolous to say the least.

I'm not sure about that because I see people focusing most of their prays on Mary rather than God/Jesus.

Females usually give Mary a lot of importance, possibly to evaluate their position and roles.

[High Max]

.

[Mobius]

Old, old, old and outdated way to reply. Calling them theories doesn't necessarily mean that they're not reliable.

I for one think that all creationists are wasting their time because evolution has been accepted by Vatican's highest authorities. There even are astronomers in Vatican who accept the Big Bang and also have their personal opinions(very good ones, I may add) about aliens.

It's not the case to keep misusing the word "theory" in a debate.

[Scotty]

So then we can call the Bible "God's Theory" or something like that and it would be more reliable? 

Apparently, I am wasting my time because I think that God created the Earth a long time ago, and evolution progressed as it has.  You might want to amend that statement.

What are you going to think and do if we find life in many places besides Earth, like Mars?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would think that was frickin' awesome and keep on believing that God didn't make life exclusively on Earth.

If Christianity and Judism were the absolute correct religions, then they would be the first, I'd think.

Which means that the flat-earth theory would be absolutely correct?  It doesn't work that way.

contradicts the peacful nature that Christians should follow.

?  And this applies to this argument how?

What if I don't want to go to heaven because I think it is too perfect and without free will or hardships?

Be my guest  .

Without hardships, you can't be truly happy.

Without having experienced hardship.  Once you get to heaven, you have still experienced such things on Earth.  You can very much be happy.

Look at the heart and morals instead of the denomination.

Thank you.

I'm not sure about that because I see people focusing most of their prays on Mary rather than God/Jesus.

Discussion over.  Catholics are Christians.  Just because they don't do exactly the same things as you does not make them not Christians.  They may very well be mistaken, but that isn't the point.

Also, quite a lot of people detest any religion by looking at histories of the religions.

The same thing applies to many, many countries.  Besides, past performance is no indication of future performance  .

I suppose I would class myself as agnostic and believe myself to be a good person, does that get me into heaven?

No.

[Polpolion]

You could say to the fanatics to prove that God exists and you could say to the athiests to prove that he doesn't exist. The argument could go on forever. Scientific theories are also not proven (like big bang and string/m theory) note the word "theory".

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/theory

Scientific and creation theories. They are all called theories.

Gravity is "only" a theory. Ask a scientist how a theory is made.

[Scotty]

Well, of course it has to be this: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512   

[peterv]

Bad news people: according to the "Apocalypse", only 144000 people will be saved. I think that all places are taken by the Saints and the Martyrs so there's no hope, no hope at all 

[Krelus]

This guy does realize that Kosher Salt has a distinctive texture which helps it adhere to food, right?

Lmfao.

[High Max]

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