[TrashMan]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gaza-probe20-2009mar20,0,1821341.story

[WeatherOp]

Yeah, sick indeed, should have nuked e'm.

[Hellstryker]

Not this **** again.

[Scotty]

Please explain to me which part of this you find as 'sick.'

What, three instances?  22 days, 1450 people dead, and there are three accounts?  This reminds me of the propaganda during one of the world wars (I can't remember which one right now) about claims that German soldiers were mutilating Belgian children "just because they could."  Unfounded. 

Seems to me the same here.  Three accounts, all unnamed personnel.  The one with the sharpshooter isn't even abuse.  It was a misunderstanding, said it right in the article.

[ssmit132]

Please explain to me which part of this you find as 'sick.'

What, three instances?  22 days, 1450 people dead, and there are three accounts?  This reminds me of the propaganda during one of the world wars (I can't remember which one right now) about claims that German soldiers were mutilating Belgian children "just because they could."  Unfounded. 

Seems to me the same here.  Three accounts, all unnamed personnel.  The one with the sharpshooter isn't even abuse.  It was a misunderstanding, said it right in the article.

Not that that justifies that in any way, but still, we have only heard three accounts, so we don't know how prevalent it is, if it is prevalent.

[Dilmah G]

If it was/is true, it just makes me angry. 

Why the RoE would be something like that shows how little people in higher echelons of the Israeli military care about what goes on "down there". Shooting civilians is bound to happen in a war, but RoE is supposed to prevent that.

[Scotty]

...

The RoE down there are to prevent unnecessary military casualties.  In case you didn't know, Israel has one of the smallest manpower 1st rate militaries in the world.  Additionally, granted there are obvious exceptions, how are you going to know who is a threat in a place like that.  Not only is it heavily urbanized, it is also run by a terrorist friendly government that has proven capable and willing to shell cities at no provocation.

[Dilmah G]

...

The RoE down there are to prevent unnecessary military casualties.  In case you didn't know, Israel has one of the smallest manpower 1st rate militaries in the world.  Additionally, granted there are obvious exceptions, how are you going to know who is a threat in a place like that.  Not only is it heavily urbanized, it is also run by a terrorist friendly government that has proven capable and willing to shell cities at no provocation.

Well an effective RoE should, in that situation also prevent civilian casualties, they're operating in an Urban area and some consideration has to be given to the civilians in the area. Fair enough it's hard to distinguish civilians from hostiles, but shooting a child?

I think neutralizing everyone in the building in an urban environment regardless of who they are is pushing it though. If they're holding a weapon or anything that could pose a threat to friendly forces fair enough, drop 'em, but shooting EVERYONE isn't right. Most if not all modern militaries put their infantry through CQB training, being able to identify and neutralise hostiles in a close quarters environment and identify (and restrain depending on the nature of the operation) non-combatants, surely the IDF could put that to some use.

[NGTM-1R]

Well an effective RoE should, in that situation also prevent civilian casualties, they're operating in an Urban area and some consideration has to be given to the civilians in the area. Fair enough it's hard to distinguish civilians from hostiles, but shooting a child?

You can't really have it both ways. And, in all fairness, Hamas has in the past used child suicide bombers. Their arming children would not be without precedent either; it's common practice among Islamic militants in much of western Africa.

[Scotty]

You can't really have it both ways.

Thank you.  I was beginning to feel like a nut-job for even defending them  .

[Nuclear1]

I don't see how any RoE justify sniping old women who poses zero threat from a thousand yards off or blowing away a woman and her kids because they don't understand the difference between "go left" and "go right" in Hebrew.

I don't make excuses for either side, since both have done some down-right dirty things.  Hamas plays dirty sometimes, and Israel mistakenly tends to respond in kind.  It's my personal belief that Cast Lead was unjustified to the extent that it was executed, but not unnecessary in its basic goal to protect Israel and stop the rocket attacks.  However, Israel's blockade of Gaza is unjustified and created many of the conditions that lead to arms smuggling and increased tensions that justified Cast Lead.

But really, how many of those rockets fired into Israel were from Hamas?  Hamas is extremist, yes, but they're not entirely stupid.  What they're not willing to admit is that they're weak and not totally in control of Gaza.  I'm willing to bet many of the attacks which Israel used to justify Cast Lead weren't launched by Hamas but by independent militants.  In which case, Israel and Hamas should be cooperating more than anything to root out the militants, but with an extreme right-wing Israeli government about to be installed and Hamas being Hamas...I don't see that happening anytime in the near future. 

[Dilmah G]

Well there are some things I don't think the IDF should be bagged for, their airstrikes etc

I'm no expert on the conflict so I didn't hear about the child suicide bombers, in that respect it makes sense. I suppose in that environment it's mildly justifiable

I don't see how any RoE justify sniping old women who poses zero threat from a thousand yards off or blowing away a woman and her kids because they don't understand the difference between "go left" and "go right" in Hebrew.

Well not complying could mean a lot of things, not understanding the language was at the bottom I'm guessing. I agree you can't idolize one and bag the other.

[Nuclear1]

Well there are some things I don't think the IDF should be bagged for, their airstrikes etc

The use of white phosphorous munitions is illegal.  They should be blamed for that.

I don't see how any RoE justify sniping old women who poses zero threat from a thousand yards off or blowing away a woman and her kids because they don't understand the difference between "go left" and "go right" in Hebrew.

Well not complying could mean a lot of things, not understanding the language was at the bottom I'm guessing.

Actually, it's close to the top.  If you don't know Hebrew and that's all the soldiers are using to communicate with you (i.e. not using hand signals), then you're not going to know whether they're threatening to blast you off the face of the earth or if they're asking for a cup of sugar.  I mean, there are strong similarities between Hebrew and Arabic...but that's not enough.

[Dilmah G]

Well there are some things I don't think the IDF should be bagged for, their airstrikes etc

The use of white phosphorous munitions is illegal.  They should be blamed for that.

I don't see how any RoE justify sniping old women who poses zero threat from a thousand yards off or blowing away a woman and her kids because they don't understand the difference between "go left" and "go right" in Hebrew.

Well not complying could mean a lot of things, not understanding the language was at the bottom I'm guessing.

Actually, it's close to the top.  If you don't know Hebrew and that's all the soldiers are using to communicate with you (i.e. not using hand signals), then you're not going to know whether they're threatening to blast you off the face of the earth or if they're asking for a cup of sugar.  I mean, there are strong similarities between Hebrew and Arabic...but that's not enough.

I agree but if you had no idea who the hell this woman was and she's acting "suspiciously" from the soldier's p.o.v. you don't know wether she's about to tie her shoes or blow herself to pieces. These soldiers are acting in a hostile environment, you treat everything and everyone as hostile until otherwise proven.

[TrashMan]

Please explain to me which part of this you find as 'sick.'

What, three instances?  22 days, 1450 people dead, and there are three accounts?

Everything.

And this is only what 3-4 people said. Those who were willing to talk. They did mention other offenses and things like being ordered to destroy whatever they can or shoot everyone.

The one with the sharpshooter isn't even abuse.  It was a misunderstanding, said it right in the article.

Children man. 2 kinds and a woman. I don't give a f*** if it was an order of not. If I was in the army and my superior gave such an order, I would shoot HIM.

[Dilmah G]

Please explain to me which part of this you find as 'sick.'

What, three instances?  22 days, 1450 people dead, and there are three accounts?

Everything.

And this is only what 3-4 people said. Those who were willing to talk. They did mention other offenses and things like being ordered to destroy whatever they can or shoot everyone.

The one with the sharpshooter isn't even abuse.  It was a misunderstanding, said it right in the article.

Children man. 2 kinds and a woman. I don't give a f*** if it was an order of not. If I was in the army and my superior gave such an order, I would shoot HIM.

With the women and children, although it seems brutal and completely inhumane in that context. As has been said before, women and children had a history of being used as suicide bombers, and the marksman would've been well within his rights to open fire on them if they were acting suspiciously. If I was on duty in Iraq and a guy started acting suspiciously I would restrain him there and then. Better safe than sorry.

[Ghostavo]

I have to agree with TrashMan. Soldiers have a duty to disobey what is known as illegal orders.

It would be kind of ironic seeing Israeli soldiers using the Nuremberg defense.

[Scotty]

And this is only what 3-4 people said.

All unnamed, citing undocumented incidents, and not naming anyone AT ALL that may have been invovled.  Until they actually say who saw and did this, I treat it as propaganda.  All of it right now is unfounded.

They did mention other offenses and things like being ordered to destroy whatever they can or shoot everyone.

No.  They said that they felt like they could vandalize things "just because they could," and even that is suspect to me.  Granted, shooting everyone would be a war crime if you knew that every person in that building was innocent and in no way involved.  RoE are made to protect one kind of person, either civilian or military.  Given the Hamas and Gaza penchant for using civilians as suicide bombers, the RoE was completely justified.

Children man. 2 kinds and a woman.

See last sentence above.

If I was in the army and my superior gave such an order, I would shoot HIM.

And be court martialed, found guilty, and SHOT.  Just because he gave such an order is no grounds for shooting him.  And that is IF this all even happened.

The use of white phosphorous munitions is illegal.  They should be blamed for that.

It is.  In combat.  Used for disguising troop movements falls completely inside world regulations.

Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday. The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.

Read the bolded part.

I'm willing to bet many of the attacks which Israel used to justify Cast Lead weren't launched by Hamas but by independent militants.

Not only would you be wrong, it wouldn't matter.  Palestinian nationals were attacking Israel with rockets from inside the Gaza Strip.  Israel stops it.  Just about what happened.

[Nuclear1]

Rocket attacks on southern Israel with zero to few casualties don't justify over a thousand dead and an infrastructure completely destroyed.  Israel has a right to defend itself but they just go far too over the top sometimes. There is such a thing as a measured response, which Israel needs to use more often rather than ripping up entire cities.

[Scotty]

And have to do this again every few years.  It sent a clear, if a little destructive, message to Hamas, or any other Palestinian gov't that they will **** them up if they attack.