[Flipside]

Oh yes, opinions vary as to what degree of weapons can be considered 'self defence', I'll accept that, but getting Americans to hand over their guns is kind of like asking the English not to put milk in a cup of tea, it's not illegal, it's not really against any cultural taboo, it's just an idea that many English people can't really get their heads around.

[General Battuta]

Oh yes, opinions vary as to what degree of weapons can be considered 'self defence', I'll accept that, but getting Americans to hand over their guns is kind of like asking the English not to put milk in a cup of tea, it's not illegal, it's not really against any cultural taboo, it's just an idea that many English people can't really get their heads around.

Evidence?

Where I am nobody owns a gun and few want one, and it's quite a large city. Crime isn't exactly low, guns just aren't seen as the smart way to handle defense.

[Flipside]

We are both debating without citation here, and that's probably for the best, I don't doubt we could both find evidence to support our points of view, maybe you are in an area that feels that way, but that's not the same as saying that they believe that no-one should have the right to carry one. If the majority did not accept that the right to own a gun was an acceptable one, there wouldn't be the level of trouble with restricting them that there is.

[karajorma]

I think imposing laws from outside, be it Washington, or any kind of world government would be pointless, won't work, no-one's going to look away or blink first, the only way to rid the US of guns would be for one of two things to happen

You missed one. Ban the sale of bullets and new guns. Problem solves itself within 1000 years.

[Dilmah G]

I think imposing laws from outside, be it Washington, or any kind of world government would be pointless, won't work, no-one's going to look away or blink first, the only way to rid the US of guns would be for one of two things to happen

You missed one. Ban the sale of bullets and new guns. Problem solves itself within 1000 years.

tl;dr

Or as Chris Brown said in "Bowling for Columbine", they should crank the price of bullets to $1000 each, that way the guy who wants to kill you has to get a job...or two, there's always the black market...but it'll stop your basic crim for sure. However unloaded weapons make great hand-to-hand combat implements.

[NGTM-1R]

I think imposing laws from outside, be it Washington, or any kind of world government would be pointless, won't work, no-one's going to look away or blink first, the only way to rid the US of guns would be for one of two things to happen

You missed one. Ban the sale of bullets and new guns. Problem solves itself within 1000 years.

You can make an American Civil War-type blackpowder musket using your oven and garage. And it will only get easier. I know of someone who was making replica Henry and Spencer repeaters in their garage back east. Good ones too, $750-$1000 is a lot for a replica gun but he never had trouble selling them.

[karajorma]

Pretty hard to sell them when the sale of bullets is banned though.

You'll always have a criminal element trying to do stuff like that.

[NGTM-1R]

Pretty hard to sell them when the sale of bullets is banned though.

You can make Minnie balls in your oven. Hell, I remember my father actually doing so, because authentic ammunition for a civil-war musket is impossible to find.

[Inquisitor]

Thing is that in my view I see very little deliberation. While you seem to at least be taking a fairly balanced view of things far too many people on both sides have already made up their minds and will simply spout ridiculous truisms in favour of their side.

That's unfortunately also human nature, sadly not just restricted to American politics.

[BengalTiger]

There are large portions of the population that would disagree.

And that's what's beautiful about America- people say and think and believe in whatever they want.

Or as Chris Brown said in "Bowling for Columbine", they should crank the price of bullets to $1000 each, that way the guy who wants to kill you has to get a job...or two, there's always the black market...but it'll stop your basic crim for sure. However unloaded weapons make great hand-to-hand combat implements.

Pretty hard to sell them when the sale of bullets is banned though.

You'll always have a criminal element trying to do stuff like that.

Look what happened during the Prohibition. America didn't exactly stop drinking when alcohol was illegal.

Then there's the fact that the "basic crim" doesn't buy ammo (or guns) at a gun store- I think they require some form of an ID check in many states for ammo, and a permit to buy a gun.

[Inquisitor]

Something else that's been bothering me about the debate here, and I think GB puts his finger on it. THere is really no unified view, and, there is VIGOROUS debate on the subject, regularly. Just last night was a big special on 20/20 (which I am sure was as fair and balanced as Fox news), and just last year (or maybe the year before) there was another huge legal challenge in the Supreme Court.

There are a huge number of opponents, and a huge number of proponents. Big country.

-edit-
Speaking of http://abcnews.go.com/2020

Interesting video.

[General Battuta]

I'm not particularly interested in shooting down any of your arguments, Inquisitor; you seem fair-minded and rational.

I just don't like this absurd stereotype Androgeous (also usually quite fair-minded and rational, mind) has about Americans.

[Inquisitor]

I agree

It seems a one dimensional view of America and Americans. The debate here is just as vigorous between Americans, Kara et al. might be surprised

I am an anomaly in this debate, by the way (in that I am for consistently enforce, regulated sale and possession laws). If I had to guess, Warlock represents a more typical proponent, knowing very little about his views other than what I see in this thread, that's only a guess.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I just don't like this absurd stereotype Androgeous (also usually quite fair-minded and rational, mind) has about Americans.

The problem is that shootings in America seem to happen quite often ... or as my local newspaper reports them. In retrospect, it is heavily biased because shootings occur all over the world, not just in America, so if the gun was a necessity for Americans, it would be a necessity for everyone in the world, and it just isn't.

[Snail]

Not trying to be funny or anything, but the general stereotype is neutral:

Americans think Brits sit around drinking tea. Brits thing Americans sit around eating burgers.

[General Battuta]

I just don't like this absurd stereotype Androgeous (also usually quite fair-minded and rational, mind) has about Americans.

The problem is that shootings in America seem to happen quite often ... or as my local newspaper reports them. In retrospect, it is heavily biased because shootings occur all over the world, not just in America, so if the gun was a necessity for Americans, it would be a necessity for everyone in the world, and it just isn't.

Exactly. And in any case it's a big leap from 'shootings happen often' to 'everybody needs a gun to protect themselves.'

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Not trying to be funny or anything, but the general stereotype is neutral:

Americans think Brits sit around drinking tea. Brits thing Americans sit around eating burgers.

Well, if you want some good American stereotypes, Jeremy Clarkson could give you a few...

[Warlock]

I agree

It seems a one dimensional view of America and Americans. The debate here is just as vigorous between Americans, Kara et al. might be surprised

I am an anomaly in this debate, by the way (in that I am for consistently enforce, regulated sale and possession laws). If I had to guess, Warlock represents a more typical proponent, knowing very little about his views other than what I see in this thread, that's only a guess.

I wouldn't say I represent a typical proponent. I'm in complete agreement on better registration for new and used firearms, renewable licensing for firearms as well as ammo, I'm all for the idea of building a rifling database to track spent rounds.

The "A Typical" Pro Gun advocate could simply be viewed with the typical phrase "You'll take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead fingers!"

I'm simply against an outright ban of firearms. Banning ammo would only boost sales of ammo making equipment. 

It's really rather simple to make your own ammo, even of modern ammo. I used to target shoot civil war era replicas. I have a custom CS Richmond Carbine and Musket, making 500 rounds ea takes me about 2 hours, which really is mostly time for the lead to melt on a single burner and then time to cool enough to wax the base of the round. Measuring out black powder loads takes roughly 1 hour for 1000 rounds with decent equipment. 

Oh and as to the whole "No reason at all for firearms" debates:

Many carry a rifle or pistol when out in the wilderness. From farmers checking on land, to hikers, surveyors, etc. They most carry at least something to protect themselves for wildlife. A rabid dog isn't something you can converse with and talk out of attacking you

Hunting. Not always a matter of sport. Many still hunt for food. While not a need for food, there are many people that enjoy such food, some whom it is a way of life. Plus thinning out populations. As we build more and more urban areas, the animal population gets more and more compacted into smaller areas. Its much kinder to shoot an animal with a firearm than make it into a hood ornament.

Simplest reason: Targetting sports. It is still a hobby of many, hell it's an olympic sport.

Those are just a small toss out of rights that would be removed from law abiding citizens if firearms were banned. It's not always just a matter of crime and protection.

[General Battuta]

Most of the American population, however, lives in cities or suburbs, where hunting and target shooting are uncommon and impractical, and wandering about the wilderness isn't likely to happen.

[Warlock]

Because noone in a city ever drives 20-50 miles and leaves that city for any amount of time at all right?

I purposely listed a couple reasons that actually included city living perons. Hikers and Surveyors. Not all hikers simply go to a park and hiker along "civilized" trails, and surveyors commonly are in nearly all areas marking property lines, state lines, etc.

So just because most may live in a city or other urban area,...that itself is a moot point.