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Offline Herra Tohtori

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I was always taught that atheists do not believe in a god, agnostics believe that we cannot know if there is a god or not, and ignostics think people assume too much about god.

Huh.

Same. I always thought there was strong atheism (there is no God), weak atheism (there's no proof of God's existence, therefore God is an unwarranted assumption) and agnosticism (there might or might not be God or gods, but by definition it is impossible for us to get any knowledge of such things so why bother having a defined opinion).
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Offline redsniper

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You'll probably find as many definitions as people really.
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Offline karajorma

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Yep. There are a lot of different ways to distinguish it. But bear in mind that strong atheists when saying "There is no God" are mostly saying "On the balance of all evidence and probability, there is no God"

You'll be very hard pressed to find an Atheist who says that "There is no God and there is absolutely no chance I'm wrong on this."
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Wikipedia is not a legitimate source for commentary on political science.  It is artificially polarized into left/right dichotomy by it's large number of American contributors.

Believe it or not, the rest of the world does not see such an overwhelming polarization of left/right political movements.

The Swedes disagree with that, and I must remind you that in these cases the article itself is most probably written by Swedes or at least Nordic people. Castor's link does not seem odd at all.

I must question your assumption of global polarization (and I also want to know where you're from) - go tell the Nepalese that they are not polarized in left-right axis. The two-party system of America seems weird, but as soon as you start to observe the rhetorics and national dialogue in almost any parliamentary democracy you will notice that the socialist-capitalist dichotomy does exist, and is often even stronger than in USA. The idea of partisanship or nonpartisanship is not American but historical, and complex dynamics and even violence between two parties is the norm in all the world! It is not uncommon that these things cause civil wars even today; if that is not polarization I do not know what is. The rhetorics differ around the world - sometimes the ideologue or parties are more important than individuals. But rest assured: the American model is actually less fanatic about ideology (partly by design) than many other nations.

I'm from Canada (as my profile indicates, IIRC).

Any student of political science should be able to tell you that political ideology falls on a sphere.  At the extreme North, we have Authoritarianism.  At the south, Libertarianism.  West, Communism.  East, Fascism.  Any political ideology can be plotted as measures of degrees between the four "poles."  Go far enough into Communism and you circle right back to Facism.  Ditto for the North-South Axis.

Most democratic countries have political parties that fall to varying degrees in all four quadrants and their citizenry typically votes along those lines.  This is most evident in European democracies that function largely based upon coalition governments.  Britain, Canada, and the States differ slightly in that their voter bases pay much more attention to the E-W axis than the N-S.  Authoritarian versus libertarian policies are connotatively understood rather than outright expressed.  Major parties also tend to focus on the E-W orientation as opposed to N-S, which, to choose an example that everyone should be familiar with, is why Ron Paul and John McCain ended up in the same party.

Political polarization along two axes is an artificial viewpoint which is common to countries like the US, Canada, and Britain, but it doesn't reflect the actual state of politics.  While socialist/capitalist ideology is the most commonly examined altercation point, it isn't the only one, and it isn't even necessarily the most relevant in some countries.  Americans, for example, think that the difference between Bush and Obama is primarily socialist/capitalist.  It isn't.  There is a much bigger delineation between the two in terms of authoritarian versus libertarian ideals.  In terms of world socialism versus capitalism, Obama and Bush are barely discernible on the scale.

Take even Liberator's thread about unwed mothers.  That isn't a left/right debate, it's an authoritarian/libertarian.  But, because Republican ideals are typically associated with the political right rather than the political North (Authoritarian), people talk about the left wing when it really is irrelevant.

Thus my objection to Wikipedia sourcing.  It fails to account for half the political spectrum of ideologies and greatly oversimplifies the actual state of political alignment.
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Offline Scotty

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Yep. There are a lot of different ways to distinguish it. But bear in mind that strong atheists when saying "There is no God" are mostly saying "On the balance of all evidence and probability, there is no God"

You'll be very hard pressed to find an Atheist who says that "There is no God and there is absolutely no chance I'm wrong on this."

Dawkins  :lol:

EDIT:  and after reading the "pudding" thread, Turambar.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 09:00:17 pm by Scotty »

 

Offline redsniper

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Wait wait wait. How does Libertarianism circle around to Authoritarianism?
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The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
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Offline Turambar

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EDIT:  and after reading the "pudding" thread, Turambar.

Hey, show me some proof and i'll gladly consider the existence of some supernatural being.

I'll just wait over here.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Polpolion

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Wait wait wait. How does Libertarianism circle around to Authoritarianism?

I was going to ask the same thing. Maybe instead of a sphere, he meant a cylinder. Or maybe you become so fervent about preventing people from infringing upon other people's rights that you forget that you're actually infringing upon their rights more than they would infringe upon other people's rights.

...

 :nervous:

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Wait wait wait. How does Libertarianism circle around to Authoritarianism?

I was going to ask the same thing. Maybe instead of a sphere, he meant a cylinder. Or maybe you become so fervent about preventing people from infringing upon other people's rights that you forget that you're actually infringing upon their rights more than they would infringe upon other people's rights.

...

 :nervous:

Extreme authoritarianism and extreme libertarianism become the same thing - extreme authoritarians dictate the best interests of the populace (whether it actually is or not), prescribing particular behaviours as a requirement for everyone; extreme libertarianism dictates that absolute personal freedom be allowed because it's in the best interests of the populace (whether it actually is or not), prescribing particular behaviours as a requirement for everyone.

Become enough of a libertarian and eventually you'll be telling people they HAVE to act in certain ways because they have the freedom to do so.  Similarly, authoritarians will tell people they have the freedom to act in all ways, but the best are particular ones.

EDIT:  I think I forgot a conceptual point.  If your sphere looks like this:

---N---
W-0-E
---S---

0 is the center.  To go from one pole to another, regardless of which side of the sphere you travel on, you have to pass through the 0 point.  0 being absolute political centrism on the front side and absolute political extremism (an artificial construct) on the back.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 09:52:06 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline peterv

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Hey, show me some proof and i'll gladly consider the existence of some supernatural being.

I'll just wait over here.

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Offline Kosh

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Yep. There are a lot of different ways to distinguish it. But bear in mind that strong atheists when saying "There is no God" are mostly saying "On the balance of all evidence and probability, there is no God"

You'll be very hard pressed to find an Atheist who says that "There is no God and there is absolutely no chance I'm wrong on this."

Dawkins  :lol:

EDIT:  and after reading the "pudding" thread, Turambar.

Actually he has never said "god certainly does not exist".

Quote
I was always taught that atheists do not believe in a god, agnostics believe that we cannot know if there is a god or not, and ignostics think people assume too much about god.

Huh.

Who taught you that?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 11:59:18 pm by Kosh »
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Offline Bobboau

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Become enough of a libertarian and eventually you'll be telling people they HAVE to act in certain ways because they have the freedom to do so. 

eh... no.
if you want to make the argument that a libertarian philosophy is unfair or not in the best interest of the largest number of people fine, but you are completely ignorant if you think that sequence of characters you just typed constituted a thought.
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Offline High Max

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 04:34:20 pm by High Max »
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Offline Turambar

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who says there's a purpose?

(that's not to say there's no purpose to lives at all, that's up to each individual.  you can make your own purpose, do without and just live, or you can borrow one from a religion)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 12:23:00 am by Turambar »
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Bobboau

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what is this god of which you speak?
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline High Max

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 04:37:41 pm by High Max »
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Offline Bobboau

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umm... wut...
ok, if you want someone to prove or dis prove something you need to give them, at the least a half decent definition of what you are talking about, that was just a paragraph of physibable.

more specificly if you want someone to prove or disprove something you need to define some points on which they can test. if you don't have that then you don't have much of anything.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline High Max

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 04:36:59 pm by High Max »
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Offline Bobboau

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disprove phlerit
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together