Author Topic: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little  (Read 65213 times)

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Offline Scotty

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Damn right I will.  Keep it civilized.

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
You are being juvenile. Both of you. For ****'s sake.

(for clarification: not scotty)
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline colecampbell666

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Yeah, I guess so.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Actually, female orgasm involves muscle contractions which increase the amount of sperm brought up to the cervixy area.

No no no no -- that's one very likely theory, but there's still debate on the topic.

Yet, you can't just dismiss it because there is still debate.

No, but because I'm a scientist, I can avoid leaping to conclusions to support my ideological bias because there was one study about the topic!

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The point is, sex is a form of reproduction.  It also functions as a social tool to keep couples together, as brought up earlier.

However, being a form of reproduction, there is the chance of pregnancy as a result.

Damn, now I can't remember what we were originally arguing about.

And nowadays it's a method of recreation as well.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Sex isn't "for" anything, reproduction or otherwise. Reproduction happens to be a result of sex. The argument that sex should be for procreation is predicated on a quasi-religious mischaracterization of the evolutionary process; evolution isn't a set of laws that must be obeyed, just a series of interrelated processes like everything else. It doesn't make sense to appeal to natural law as a basis for our social understanding of sex, because there is no "natural law," there's just nature, and nature isn't a thing; it's everything. Have sex if you want to reproduce, or have sex because it rules-- "nature" doesn't give a ****.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to a party to get drunk and hopefully have sex.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
The evidence here comes from two sources: correlative links between sex and fitness, and experiments (much better!) in which one group was assigned to have a certain amount of sex, then tested for happiness and fitness. They were better off than control groups, including control groups given comparable non-sexual exercises.

And I say again - bollcoks. I can excercise and be fit without any sex. And happines is not something you can mesure objectively anyway.


In addition, any marriage based on sex is doom to failure sooner or later.



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You have no data to support that remark, and, in fact, it's not scientifically valid at all.

What? That men are more hormon and instict driven than woman?
But we are. We produce more hormones in general and, unfortunately, act more "primitive" then women in general.



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Unfortunately you're doing nothing to shake my view of you as an established misogynist.

Your view of me doesn't interest me at all. I'm not even trying to mold your view of me in any way. Think what you will - I couldn't care less if I tried.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Just cause you want something doesn't make it your right or your prerogative.
WHAT THE ****! SHE CAN DO WHATEVER THE **** SHE WANTS!  WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE HER, AND TELL HER WHAT SHE CAN AND CAN'T DO. YOU ARE CROSSING THE LINE FROM IGNORANT TO ASSHOLE!

(Sorry admins, but that goes a bit over. I can't stand self-righteous holier-than-though **** like that.)

ERm...yeah...keep it down sourpuss.

The point is you can't do whatever you want. You're not free to do whatever you want. You're not entitled to do whatever you want. You're not entilted to do anything without consequences. Actions always have consequences.

Attempting to run from the consequences or hide behind a fog of supposed "rights", "wants" and blame castings is ...is...well, I really lack the words to describe it....foolish? egoistical? Self-decieving? Take your pick.


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Dude, I already told him. Do you think it'll listen anyways? (watch him ***** at me for being juvenile)

NO MORE SEX IT MAKES BABBYS AND BAD ZAKC KILLS THEM SHE DOESN'T LIKE BABBY SHE R MONSTR ROOOOORRR ROOOOOORRRR!

Now you really are being juvenile...
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
The evidence here comes from two sources: correlative links between sex and fitness, and experiments (much better!) in which one group was assigned to have a certain amount of sex, then tested for happiness and fitness. They were better off than control groups, including control groups given comparable non-sexual exercises.

And I say again - bollcoks. I can excercise and be fit without any sex. And happines is not something you can mesure objectively anyway.


In addition, any marriage based on sex is doom to failure sooner or later.



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You have no data to support that remark, and, in fact, it's not scientifically valid at all.

What? That men are more hormon and instict driven than woman?
But we are. We produce more hormones in general and, unfortunately, act more "primitive" then women in general.



Quote
Unfortunately you're doing nothing to shake my view of you as an established misogynist.

Your view of me doesn't interest me at all. I'm not even trying to mold your view of me in any way. Think what you will - I couldn't care less if I tried.

You're a lump.

a) You can be fit without sex. I never said you couldn't be. But people who have more sex tend to be more fit and happy than those who don't. And this may be a causative, rather than correlative, link.

I didn't say anything about a marriage based only on sex.

b) You are simply making **** up. You have no evidence. Men do not produce any more hormones than women do. Your ignorance staggers me.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 12:05:07 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Janos

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
And I say again - bollcoks. I can excercise and be fit without any sex. And happines is not something you can mesure objectively anyway.

hahahaha this cannot be true, this is just too good

lol wtf

 

Offline colecampbell666

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Just cause you want something doesn't make it your right or your prerogative.
WHAT THE ****! SHE CAN DO WHATEVER THE **** SHE WANTS!  WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE HER, AND TELL HER WHAT SHE CAN AND CAN'T DO. YOU ARE CROSSING THE LINE FROM IGNORANT TO ASSHOLE!

(Sorry admins, but that goes a bit over. I can't stand self-righteous holier-than-though **** like that.)

ERm...yeah...keep it down sourpuss.

The point is you can't do whatever you want. You're not free to do whatever you want. You're not entitled to do whatever you want. You're not entilted to do anything without consequences. Actions always have consequences.

Attempting to run from the consequences or hide behind a fog of supposed "rights", "wants" and blame castings is ...is...well, I really lack the words to describe it....foolish? egoistical? Self-decieving? Take your pick.


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Dude, I already told him. Do you think it'll listen anyways? (watch him ***** at me for being juvenile)

NO MORE SEX IT MAKES BABBYS AND BAD ZAKC KILLS THEM SHE DOESN'T LIKE BABBY SHE R MONSTR ROOOOORRR ROOOOOORRRR!

Now you really are being juvenile...
I notice that you responded to everything but the fact that you don't get to tell someone what their prergoative is. Zack is a human, that makes it her right to do whatever the **** she wants with her body.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

  

Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I'm telling you that you aren't free to just decide "X is my perogatoive" like that. Just cause you want it, or say it, doesn't make it so.

I can say "It' my perogative to fling poo/grenades/knives at the president without consequences. Freedom of speech! Attacaaaa!" or crap like that. What I won't I don't automaticly get.

People aren't completely free to do what they want. Total freedom doesn't exist, especially if your freedom intereferes with someone elses (or national security..or other things).


**

That said, I can understand how people can be afraid of having a child.
It's a big responsilbiltiy and definately can turn your life completley upside down.
They might be afraid that they wont' make good parents, they might fear they don't have the resources to raise it properly (or at all), or might be afraid of sicknesses that run trough the family. They might fear such a sudden change in lifestyle (and boy, once the baby gets there it a friggin big change. No time for sex and parties)

All of that, I can understand.
What I cannot ever understand is calling a child a parasite, coldly and without any remorse. To me, that shows a cold, empty heart.


Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Hades

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
What I cannot ever understand is calling a child a parasite, coldly and without any remorse. To me, that shows a cold, empty heart.
One little nitpick here, the heart only pumps blood, it has nothing to do with feelings or whether someone is a good person or a bad person.

When you think about it, a child is a parasite. While it matures, it leeches off of the parent's resources, whether it's in the uterus or outside of the uterus.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Just 'cause I couldn't resist putting my finger in this nice soup again, let's have a pick at the fundamental core problem that many people have with abortion.

Claim: Abortion is child murder.

My answer: To be murder, as in homicide, the target of abortion should be a person and alive. It is only the latter. Therefore abortion is not homicide. However, it could be defined as feticide (which has different meanings in legal and medical contexts), which is by definition a different matter (and you shouldn't confuse the term "legal person" with the normal definition of person).

Obviously same applies to "child". Zygote isn't a child. Embryo isn't a child either. Neither of these have the prerequisites of human being in any other sense than their genome and the subsequent ability to grow and develope into a human child. They are not persons just because they might be.

You do not normally (I hope) treat people or things based on what they could potentially become. So claiming that the zygote or embryo are "children" or human beings is a flawed argument, because they quite obviously aren't. Embryo is a cluster of cells doesn't have the nervous system crucial for bringing up a personality until much later in the course of pregnancy. Abortion of the pregnancy at these stages is from biological and materialistic point of view not ending a life of human being. It is terminating a pregnancy and that's all there is to it on any reality-based argumentation that usually comes up in these arguments.

If you want to go the route that says the zygote is a human being and terminating it shouldn't be allowed, then why not declare all animal zygotes human beings? After all, they are very much identical in appearance, functions and size - heck, embryos and fetuses look, act and work very much alike in mammals (up to certain point of course)!

The argument that cow zygote or pig embryo should be considered to be human being is obviously absurd, but why? Because we know they won't become humans, but human embryo does have potential to that. However the potential is just that - it means the embryo can become a human being, but is not human at that point.

So, I said that terminating a pregnancy is just that and that's all there is to it in biological and materialistic sense. Hormonally and emotionally it's a whole different thing obviously. Female body reacts in certain ways to pregnancy, unwanted or wanted, and it's termination usually causes some kind of adverse reactions (which is not to say pregnancy wouldn't...), either physically and mentally and usually both. So no, it isn't a matter to be taken lightly, but it MOST CERTAINLY is every female's choice up to certain point whether to do it or not.



Now, aborting a relatively developed fetus... that's a different story (as is drawing the line between embryo and a fetus). At some point, the developing organism starts to have enough nerve systems that it starts to get increasingly difficult to say it isn't killing a baby, but like I said drawing the line is very very hard. The textbook definitions say that developing human is an embryo until 8th week of pregnancy, whereafter it is named fetus, however these are just definitions of the words, obviously.

Different legislations draw the line at different point. One good point of reference could be somewhere before the fetus has the ability to (theoretically) survive a pre-term birth with intensive care. That would place the line at somewhere around... 20th week I think?
* Herra Tohtori cheks the wiki

...yeah, the youngest prematurely born child was 21/23 weeks old depending of the method of calculation. Which actually coincides with the legislations in many countries I believe.

Personally I would put the limit at somewhere closer to ten weeks for elective abortions and about twenty weeks or so for clinical abortions. Ten weeks should be ample time to find out about the pregnancy and decide whether the mother wants to carry the baby or not. After that point, there should better be some damn good reason to the abortion; best I can think of is immediate medical risk for the mother, although there are other reasons I would consider valid as well.

...Just looked it up and this actually coincides surprisingly well with the legislation in Finland:

Quote from: BBC
Availability: Under certain conditions

Gestational limit: 24 weeks

Conditions: Abortions permitted up to 12 weeks to save the woman's life, to preserve her mental health, for economic or social reasons or in the cases of rape or incest.
Available up to 20 weeks if there is a risk to the physical health of woman or if she is younger than 17. The procedure can be performed up to 24 weeks if the woman's life is at risk or there is a risk of foetal malformation.

An abortion must be authorised by one or two doctors up to 12 weeks, or by the State Medical Board up to 20 weeks. Abortion is free of charge under national health insurance but women must pay hospital fees.

The International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF) says that in practice a woman can get an abortion on demand, but illegal abortion is rare.


TrashMan, for the aforementioned reasons comparing woman's prerogative to abortion to prerogative to "fling poo/grenades/knives at the president without consequences". Often used analogy between murder and abortion works even worse, since murder is ending a person's life.


Oh, and religious views of zygote, embryo or fetus being a human being "just because" or because it "has a soul" aren't valid argumentative material. They are non-falsifiable statements with just opinion value in this matter, like in all matters that affect other people than those with the same convictions. You can think so or believe so, but don't try to force your opinions on others after stating them.

It's not your business to decide whether those who end up with unwanted pregnancy should have the right to terminate it or not. Within reasonable time limit of course. Aborting a fetus that could possibly live a premature birth with intensive care is actually tantamount to child murder in my personal logic circuits, but an abortion done soon enough after finding out the pregnancy... I have no problem with that at all.


Also it's meaningless to talk about developing child as "parasite" "symbiote" or any other biological terms that describe the coexistence of some species. It's called viviparous gestation and other terminology isn't quite meant for dealing with it. It's a process in a class of it's own, so to speak.

Now, placenta, there's an interesting lump of tissue, if you consider the biological structure. It basically acts as an interface between the mother and the fetus, and as such it can't be clearly defined to be belonging to either.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 09:33:39 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I'm telling you that you aren't free to just decide "X is my perogatoive" like that. Just cause you want it, or say it, doesn't make it so.
When it's your body in question, then, yes, actually, you are free to decide what your prerogative is.  There are very few times when the government or society can force you to make a decision about your personal health, but that usually is when the greater good and the well-being of the community are at risk. 

A fetus developing inside a woman's uterus, on the other hand, causes no physical harm or effect on the general well-being of the community, as, say, a bacteria outbreak would.  Instead, the mother, whose nutrients the fetus is siphoning off, is the only party directly physically affected by a pregnancy.  It directly affects her health and her well-being, which is something necessary to be taken into consideration. 

Therefore, it is her decision on whether to carry the fetus to full maturity and give birth to the child, or to terminate it. 

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I can say "It' my perogative to fling poo/grenades/knives at the president without consequences. Freedom of speech! Attacaaaa!" or crap like that.
Apples to aircraft carriers.

Find a better analogy.

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People aren't completely free to do what they want. Total freedom doesn't exist, especially if your freedom intereferes with someone elses (or national security..or other things).
And does a woman's decision with regards to her own body and the maturing fetus inside it, affect any other party other than herself?

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What I cannot ever understand is calling a child a parasite, coldly and without any remorse. To me, that shows a cold, empty heart.
What's funny is abortion isn't as black and white as you'd like to picture it.  Women who terminate children aren't just selfish, cold-blooded murderers without feeling or emotion who simply want to get rid of the child so they can have free time party and go on without any responsibility.

If you'd read some sources relating to the matter instead of just appealing to people's emotions completely without basis, then you'd realize a fair number of women who undergo abortions suffer extreme emotional distress afterwards, and some even attempt suicide.  It's not an easy decision, not by a long shot.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
But in order to give the woman that freedom, you are ignoring the inherent humanity of the baby.  What about his/her rights?  Who speaks for them?
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
You're ignoring that a collection of 8 cells isn't a human.

But even if we say it is, you're basically saying that because the woman is the only person who can save the baby's life is the mother, she should be forced to do so. Right? Any other argument blames the mother for getting pregnant and Trashman at least has claimed that he doesn't.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
But in order to give the woman that freedom, you are ignoring the inherent humanity of the baby.  What about his/her rights?  Who speaks for them?


What Karajorma said. Potential to become human does not make the embryo one.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
You are right, 8 cells doesn't qualify as human, too bad by the time you can tell if a woman is pregnant or not, it's a helluva lot more than 8 cells.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
But it's still hijacking her endocrine system and siphoning nutrients off of her.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline colecampbell666

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
And most women will find out within about 8 weeks give or take, at which point the baby is still embryonic.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.