Author Topic: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little  (Read 65631 times)

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
You are right, 8 cells doesn't qualify as human, too bad by the time you can tell if a woman is pregnant or not, it's a helluva lot more than 8 cells.

So... what constitutes as a human being? (my opinion in parenthesis)

Tzygote of Homo sapiens? (no)

8 weeks old embryo of Homo sapiens? (no)

12 weeks old fetus? (no. I don't think there's enough strucural ability to be human being here yet.)

24 weeks old? (getting on the limits here. This is the fuzzy ground, because technically a child born at this time could still survive and when it's born it automatically becomes a person, though physically it's the same when it's in utero. At the risk of ruining my own argument I say that yes, at this point it is possible that the fetus could be considered human being already.

A recently born Rattus norvegicus? (no, for obvious reasons)

A recently born Homo sapiens? (yes, newborn babies have a personality and some level of sapience, and they gain these abilities at some point during the last trimester of the pregnancy (my estimation). Empathy too, as they react to the feelings of people around them - maybe instinctively, but then what couldn't be called instinctual.)

Three years old Homo sapiens? (yes...)

Adult Pan troglodytes? (yes, as they have much the same mental, emotional and cognitive capabilities as a three-year old child.)

Adult Gorilla gorilla? (yes, same as above.)


By the way, yes, I do know that defining humanity with abilities can become a slippery slope. However, I do consider ability to sentience, personality and empathy pretty much the defining features of being a human being. Many (most mammals and birds at least) animals have personality (pet owners or wild life researchers would be quick to agree), but their sentience is questionable, as is their ability to empathy in most cases. Pack animal behaviour can perhaps be explained by instincts in cases like canines or bovines, or horses or lambs or such critters.

However, with species like great apes, their behaviour leads me to conclude that yes, they are "human beings" in the sense that they are sentient, have personality and ability to feel empathy (among other similar abilities like communication, using tools, abstract thought etc. etc.). Same applies to some cetacean species. I would consider shooting a chimpanzee a crime comparative to killing a two or three-year-old child. On a hand-to-hand fight though, chimpanzee would win... so it's just manslaughter. You couldn't, though. A grown healthy chimpanzee would probably rip right through Alexandr Karelin, Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris if it wanted to.

An embryo, and a fetus up to certain level, has none of these abilities. It's only ability for quite long is just to grow; then it starts to gain motoric functions, and at some point it obviously crosses a certain threshold where it's nervous system is capable of generating personality and some level of sentience. But like said, drawing an arbitrary line where the fetus can be considered human being is difficult and I would hate to be in a position of making such decisions, because whatever you decide you're always wrong.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I believe the earliest possible detection is five days after conception... or maybe it was five days after the missed period.

If I were pregnant, I would suspect so within a month.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Four days short of a month is earliest.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
The whole argument collides on the topic of when the fetus becomes a baby.

One side says conception, one side says birth.  And yet neither side has truly good reasons as to they're stance.

One side says it's murder, the other says it's parasite removal.

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not the child of the parasite side...I'd probably get left at a bus stop somewhere....
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
The whole argument collides on the topic of when the fetus becomes a baby.

One side says conception, one side says birth.  And yet neither side has truly good reasons as to they're stance.

One side says it's murder, the other says it's parasite removal.

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not the child of the parasite side...I'd probably get left at a bus stop somewhere....

Would you really want to be the child of someone who doesn't want you?
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Exactly, the child's just going to have all sorts of psychological issues when he/she grows up if they aren't taken proper care of. If the mother thinks she can't care/doesn't want to care and has an abortion, then really she's just saving the system from another felon/mental patient.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
The whole argument collides on the topic of when the fetus becomes a baby.

I completely agree with you on this. Which is why I posted my views concentrating pretty much on this topic...

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One side says conception, one side says birth.  And yet neither side has truly good reasons as to they're stance.

There are no good argumentations for either of these extremities, and I don't think many people who actually give the matter any thought at all fall into either camp. The answer lies somewhere in between, and there are many good reasons for views that range from the eight-week mark of switch from embryonic developement to foetal developement, to late third trimester. However, there is no true answer for the question either because each pregnancy is different and each fetus developes slightly differently, which means no fixed date for the awakening of humanity/personality/sentience or whatever can reliably be given.

This is why I personally play it safe with my opinion and say that first trimester abortions are ok as elective, second trimester kinda so-so and third trimester... deeply questionable.


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One side says it's murder, the other says it's parasite removal.

Again, I don't think many people think of it as parasite removal even if they advocate freedom of choice for women regarding abortion. It's termination of unwanted or dangerous pregnancy.


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All I can say is I'm glad I'm not the child of the parasite side...I'd probably get left at a bus stop somewhere....

What are you talking about??

This is a deeply flawed argument, and it appalls me that you even bothered to make it. Think about it:

If you were born to a mother who thinks it is the woman's right to choose whether to keep the child or not, wouldn't it kinda imply that she chose to carry you, give birth to you and raise you as opposed to not caring about you at all? It means she wanted to have a child. It means she wanted to have a child and it wasn't an unwanted pregnancy.

As opposed to a situation where a woman gets pregnant, has no way of terminating it or believes it's wrong to do and thus has to bear the child, give birth to it and raise it even if she didn't want to?

Wtf man. :shaking:


Curses, too slow. :blah:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
The trouble is that there is an alternative to raising the child, even an unwilling mother can make a difficult, but sometimes beneficial choice to give up the child for adoption.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Of course.

That's not implicitely a better option than termination of an unwanted pregnancy though.

It's not "taking responsibility" either. It's getting rid of the child that was born simply because there was no way to prevent it after getting knocked up.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Here's my question:  Why is this thread still going?

The abortion debate is as old as time itself.  Women (and men) have been aborting pregnancies since we gained the knowledge to do so... in other words, throughout recorded history and likely well beyond that.  Meanwhile, other women and men have been interfering with the decision for a variety of reasons.  You're not going to solve it.

Abortion is legal in democratic nations which value the rights of individuals.  If you like it, great, keep fighting to keep it that way.  If you don't, suck it up or move to a fundamentalist nation that views the issue the same way you do.  Either way, arguing about it on an Internet forum is BEYOND pointless.

Just sayin'  :p
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Here:




Because as much as anyone can respect other opinions... they would still prefer others change their opinion and agree with them.

And it feels so GOOD to be RIGHTeous in the internet. ;)

EDIT: miscellaneous
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I lol'd
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
You are right, 8 cells doesn't qualify as human, too bad by the time you can tell if a woman is pregnant or not, it's a helluva lot more than 8 cells.

So when does it qualify as human then in your opinion?

* karajorma is surprised no one else asked since that's a major difference from Trashman's and presumably Scotty's points of view.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I haven't figured that out.  Honestly, it's above my pay grade(which is nonexistent amt :sigh: ).

But for myself, I would like it just fine if things went back to way they were before this procedure and abominable offspring(particularly the variant used in late term abortion, I hear tales of babies surviving the initial attempt, being partially delivered and murdered afterward) were developed.  At least so far as this procedure goes.  Everyone seems so set on the health of the mother, but how healthy is it to drill into some of the most resilient tissue in her body?  I mean, the female body is designed specifically to keep a unborn child safe from harm and damage from external sources barring heavy violence and accidents.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I haven't figured that out.  Honestly, it's above my pay grade(which is nonexistent amt :sigh: ).

Okay but if you haven't figured out when it is, on what basis are you unwilling to accept the argument of those who have?

The 24 week limit we have in the UK is the opinion of people who have studied the subject. If you're going to disagree with that, I'd like to hear something a bit more concrete as the reason than just a gut feeling.

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But for myself, I would like it just fine if things went back to way they were before this procedure

And when is that? Methods for forcing a miscarriage have been known since ancient times. The Hippocratic Oath even includes a line about abortion. Abortion is not a modern thing by any means.

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I hear tales of babies surviving the initial attempt, being partially delivered and murdered afterward

I'd be very careful about listening to those tales. I've heard all kinds of nonsense from the anti-abortion groups. I certainly wouldn't put it past them to spread such stories. 

Quote
Everyone seems so set on the health of the mother, but how healthy is it to drill into some of the most resilient tissue in her body?  I mean, the female body is designed specifically to keep a unborn child safe from harm and damage from external sources barring heavy violence and accidents.

Bear in mind that most abortions are carried out using techniques that don't involve cutting at all.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Most abortions use medication, no physical aspect.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Seems we hit the crux of the matter.. semantics and worth of a humans life.

When does a human life start to have some worth? Whatever answer you pick, I can argue something different. And thereby justify any subsequent killing action by the simple virtue that it's not human/person at that point.

After all, what makes a human, human? Just bilogy? in that case, a humans' life if worth from day 1.
Brain power? What's so special about that? Heck, every animal has a brain. And when does a brain become big enough and complex enough for the human life to have worth?
Personality?Newborns don't have a personality yet. They are blank slates yet to written upon. No worth whatsoever then.
Inherent empathy? Some humans are cold as blocks of ice.
Usefulness to the species? Chuck the old and impotent into the fire then.

You can start applying labels and categories, but there's really no difference in saying a fetus isn't a person, and therefore can be killed, and saying that mass murdered isn't a person, and then frying him on a electric chair. It's all down to the criteria and semantics and applying worth.

Frankly, this now dwells deep into the philosphical aspect, and whole books could be written on any of those questions.

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Offline iamzack

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Here's a much better question: Why is a human life inherently worth more than the life of any other animal, plant, bacterium, etc?

Hint: It's not.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
It is to us because we're human.
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Offline Snail

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Here's a much better question: Why is a human life inherently worth more than the life of any other animal, plant, bacterium, etc?

Hint: It's not.
wat