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Is Religion Holding Us Back?

Yes
No
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Author Topic: Is Religion Holding Us Back?  (Read 41523 times)

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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
But he can do it, he's omnipotent, so why doesn't he?
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
There's a pill for that.

Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.

You've been warned about personal attacks before. I won't be warning you again.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
If I pricked you, but I also gave you a bajillion dollars, a house, a car and pretty much everything else you wanted in your life...would you call me evil and a bastard cause I pricked you?
Think of it this way - all of the misery and troubles of life could be like a mere prick compared to what awaits us.

Ah, thank you. You've demonstrated it perfectly.

God is immoral. Evil, in fact. Because eternal punishment of any nature, any form, is both immoral and evil. There is no return from the lake of fire. You burn, or do whatever it is you do, for eternity.

This is about as wrong as wrong gets. No matter what you've done, no crime merits eternal punishment. Death is an end and a denial of your remaining life; you are stuck that way eternally, but you were never going to be eternal anyways, so it's not an eternal punishment. The Roman concept of damnatio memoriae, to remove someone from history, to erase the record of their existence, is about as close to eternal punishment as we are capable of enacting, and it is woefully inadequate at its job (we can name quite a few people who underwent damnatio memoriae). No punishment, even the most severe we can devise, is anywhere near comparable.

And we have grave misgivings about our own most severe punishments. God's transition directly to out of bounds.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
If I pricked you, but I also gave you a bajillion dollars, a house, a car and pretty much everything else you wanted in your life...would you call me evil and a bastard cause I pricked you?
Think of it this way - all of the misery and troubles of life could be like a mere prick compared to what awaits us.

Ah, thank you. You've demonstrated it perfectly.

God is immoral. Evil, in fact. Because eternal punishment of any nature, any form, is both immoral and evil. There is no return from the lake of fire. You burn, or do whatever it is you do, for eternity.

This is about as wrong as wrong gets. No matter what you've done, no crime merits eternal punishment. Death is an end and a denial of your remaining life; you are stuck that way eternally, but you were never going to be eternal anyways, so it's not an eternal punishment. The Roman concept of damnatio memoriae, to remove someone from history, to erase the record of their existence, is about as close to eternal punishment as we are capable of enacting, and it is woefully inadequate at its job (we can name quite a few people who underwent damnatio memoriae). No punishment, even the most severe we can devise, is anywhere near comparable.

And we have grave misgivings about our own most severe punishments. God's transition directly to out of bounds.

There is only one minor flaw in that line of thinking.

There is no gray area with God.

You are either sinful or not.

He has stated over and over that the punishment for sin is death(eternity in hell).

Humans have gray because we are transient temporal beings in this world, we HAVE to have gray because otherwise we'd kill each other over the smallest of offenses.  Our world couldn't exist is we didn't have gray.

As an all-powerful being, God can't have gray, with that kind of power, any ambiguity is disastrous.  It would cause the universe to cease to function.

As personal and loving as God is, he is simultaneously as impersonal as a force of nature.

As to the argument that says, "If God is so loving and kind, why did he allow X to happen?"
God has a plan for everything, every event has a purpose.

Why did my house burn down?  So that you could move into this new house that's twice the size of the old one.
Why did my wife die?  So that you could meet someone new and have children that will enrich the world that wouldn't have happened because your deceased wife was infertile, or so that you can save someone else marriage by reminding them how much they love each other and how little the day to day worries mean.

I'm not saying every disaster has some deep metaphysical meaning.  A Tsunami is a disaster of biblical proportions.  A tornado the same way.  It's just that you can't say, God did X or Y and that is immoral and makes him a creep, unworthy of worship.  Let's say your father carried on with another woman or embezzled money from the company he works at.  Would you stop loving him any less?  He's still your father and worthy of your respect.  It's the same with God, he's our Creator, that alone makes him worthy of worship, even if we don't see eye to eye with him all the time.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
You've been warned about personal attacks before. I won't be warning you again.

And what the hell was her post?
Implying I'm insane or dellusional isn't a personal attack?

Pfft.


God is immoral. Evil, in fact. Because eternal punishment of any nature, any form, is both immoral and evil. There is no return from the lake of fire. You burn, or do whatever it is you do, for eternity.

This is about as wrong as wrong gets. No matter what you've done, no crime merits eternal punishment. Death is an end and a denial of your remaining life; you are stuck that way eternally, but you were never going to be eternal anyways, so it's not an eternal punishment. The Roman concept of damnatio memoriae, to remove someone from history, to erase the record of their existence, is about as close to eternal punishment as we are capable of enacting, and it is woefully inadequate at its job (we can name quite a few people who underwent damnatio memoriae). No punishment, even the most severe we can devise, is anywhere near comparable.

And we have grave misgivings about our own most severe punishments. God's transition directly to out of bounds.

It's not actually clear if it really is eternal...and you have no idea what that punishment actually is, or how Hell really is.
 Burning in a lake of fire is a nice metaphor, but that's not really it.

I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Hmmm... eternal punishment for acts committed in a finite period. Yeah, that sounds totally reasonable.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
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  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
There is only one minor flaw in that line of thinking.

There is no gray area with God.

You are either sinful or not.

He has stated over and over that the punishment for sin is death(eternity in hell).

This is relevant, I'm sure.

Oh wait.

It's not.

Because we are arguing basic morality. This is beyond the word of law, even His. This is down to absolute right and wrong. And He's wrong. It matters not that He says he's not wrong. He was foolish enough to give us minds that reason, minds that understand the concept of duplicity, and with these minds, we have determined that no matter what He says, God is not moral. Prove to me there is a crime so great, it deserves eternal punishment. I care not that God says it does. I want to know why it does.

Because there's no crime so great, so long-lasting, so heinous, that it can ever possibly merit eternal punishment. This is a simple impossiblity, for no one in the whole history of this mortal race is capable of committing such a crime, because we are just that, mortal. We lack the lifespan, the means. Yet we will be punished forever? This is wrong on a scale that dwarfs petty human genocides.

It's not actually clear if it really is eternal...and you have no idea what that punishment actually is, or how Hell really is.
 Burning in a lake of fire is a nice metaphor, but that's not really it.

I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".

Fine. Then ignore the fact that Lake of Fire is in fact the literal wording used. Regardless, my point stands. No crime can ever merit punishment for eternity, and on that, the biblical accounts are very specific. You have invented some strange, extrabiblical notion of non-eternal punishment, much like Purgatory was always an extrabiblical notion, something that can be read back into the texts, but not read out of them.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Quote
No, I mean - I had enough proof to convince me, BUT I doubt it would convince you OR you would even regard it as proof.


In other words you've got nothing.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline colecampbell666

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  • Evolution and ascension.
Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Why did my house burn down?  So that you could move into this new house that's twice the size of the old one.
Everyone has that kind of money. Everyone. The average Canadian is 40000 dollars in debt, not counting mortgages.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Quote
God has a plan for everything, every event has a purpose.


Hogwash. So much of what happens just comes down to probability, nothing more.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
So Trashman has proof, but none of us can see it.

No, I mean - I had enough proof to convince me, BUT I doubt it would convince you OR you would even regard it as proof.


Let me give you an example.
I tell you your mother is a filthy whore. Now, you know your mother better than me, you know her routine, and you know she doesn't really have time or inclination for whoring. Yet trying to prove it to me would be either exceptionally difficult or downright impossible, and not to mention a total waste of time.

Except his mother COULD be a filthy whore and he just ignores it or doesn't see it. (What a great example by the way)

This is quite evident in people who don't know their spouses are cheating on them and parents who don't know their kids are drug addled monsters.

I can convince a kid Santa is real. He's not

*awaits heartache*

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
That example sucks because the analogy between someone knowing their mother and you knowing your God is... invalid.

Can't think of a better word for it. :sigh:

You do know what the concept of "falsifiable" means, don't you? :nervous:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline blackhole

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Hoooooooly ****, I'm not sure I can even bring myself to say anything in this conversation. Having just finished watching the most awesome documentary ever made, Religulous, I will simply paraphrase the entire thing:

Either we move past religion, or we'll blow ourselves up.

Maybe we won't blow ourselves up, but I guarantee that if there is a future for the human race, its history books will describe religion as "a way of teaching children to ignore logic." We are fast approaching a critical precipice between the religious fundamentalists and everyone else who doesn't really give a **** one way or another. As we grow more and more divided, we become unable to coexist with each other, and so one side is going to have to win over the other. Hopefully, following the current trend, logic will prevail and religion will slowly die out as we teach children in grade school that correlation does not imply causality. Otherwise, religion will win, and anti-religious science will likely shrink away into its own caste, going into a period of hyperinnovation until they figure out a way to escape to another planet and move there.

Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>

...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 12:30:51 am by blackhole »

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?

Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>

...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.

I'm pretty sure there's a Rush song about that.  2112
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
off topic: why are you offline?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>

...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.

Except that the Great Unwashed you folk are talking about fall somewhere in the middle.  Neither Bible/Koran/whatever thumping Zealots nor Atheistic God-Hating Humanists.

If you look, a surprising number of scientists have a belief in God, they just hide it because they're "superiors" would fix it so that they'd never be taken seriously.  I mean look at Global Warming, the Loudmouthed Eco-whackos, such as the Revered Reverend of the End of the World Albert Gore, Jr, downtalk and ignore anyone who does not subscribe to they're version of how things are gonna happen, despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of Climatologists and Metorologists have gone on record as not believing in the prevailing theory.  How is that any different than some power crazed Imam or Nutter Priest running off at the mouth about how the West is they're enemy and America is the Great Satan and so forth?
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline castor

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>

...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
You could extend that story with a third group, the one that tries to stay as far as possible from those two :P

 

Offline colecampbell666

  • I See Dead Pictures
  • 212
  • Evolution and ascension.
Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Hoooooooly ****, I'm not sure I can even bring myself to say anything in this conversation. Having just finished watching the most awesome documentary ever made, Religulous, I will simply paraphrase the entire thing:

Either we move past religion, or we'll blow ourselves up.

Maybe we won't blow ourselves up, but I guarantee that if there is a future for the human race, its history books will describe religion as "a way of teaching children to ignore logic." We are fast approaching a critical precipice between the religious fundamentalists and everyone else who doesn't really give a **** one way or another. As we grow more and more divided, we become unable to coexist with each other, and so one side is going to have to win over the other. Hopefully, following the current trend, logic will prevail and religion will slowly die out as we teach children in grade school that correlation does not imply causality. Otherwise, religion will win, and anti-religious science will likely shrink away into its own caste, going into a period of hyperinnovation until they figure out a way to escape to another planet and move there.

Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>

...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Is Religion Holding Us Back?
Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.

remember, "religious science-fearing nutjobs" did 9/11
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D