[Scotty]

Well, no.  The people who started those conflicts were the wackjobs.  Once something like that starts, it's hard to stop.

[Liberator]

prove religion is not holding us back.

Prove that it is.

prove there is a god.

checkmate!

Prove there isn't.

See the problem is that He tried proving His existence already.  During the time of Abraham, he and Abraham as well as Abe's kids apparently, were on first person speaking terms.  But what that gave him were mindless followers who would do whatever he asked.  He doesn't really need these as He already has the Angels, powerful servants who nevertheless remain soulless.  What separates Humanity from Angels is the presence of a Soul.  He doesn't want more mindless followers, He wants companionship who can interact with Him on His level.  The entirety of the Old and New Testaments is both the story of God's Chosen people the Jews, but it's also the story of God trying over and over to find a way to purify Man of they're sin so they can approach Him, because as a perfect being, he cannot abide imperfection to be in his presence.  It's not that he doesn't love and care for each of His creations, it's just that His perfection burns away the imperfect, IE sin, and until a man's soul has been purified, that soul, that part that can interact with God at his level down the Centuries would be burned away as well.  Hence all the goings on first with blood sacrifice then the sacrifice of His only Son to one of the most barbaric death immaginable.

Sorry I get a bit long winded.

The problem with a strong Church is that you get people up at the top that get corrupted by the power they wield.  The problem with strong government is you get people at the top that get corrupted by the power they wield.  It's not that religion is bad, it's the people that are inherently bad.

Same thing can be said for scientists who manipulate the way the information is reported to make sure they get an outcome that keeps they're research going.  The myth of the Dreamer who goes into science to find a cure for something and keeps they're dream is sadly just a myth.

Lastly, a foundation of strong science and reason hardly discounts the existence of the Divine.

[Bobboau]

my point was 'prove a negative' on something which has no positive evidence is bull****, you can't tell me 'prove there isn't' because you refused to 'prove it doesn't' first. by those rules established by your side you are now on the defensive and must pony up some sort of evidence that is more than 'doesn't disprove therefore proved'. this does not exist therefore checkmate. what we know of the universe makes perfect seance without a god, where the **** did you get the idea for it? try to prove it is more than a fantasy that some long ago generation forgot to tell the next wasn't real.

or do you want to prove me wrong?

[Scotty]

What I just got from that is:  "But I asked you first."

And yeah, it makes perfect sense, if by perfect sense you mean "we have no f*cking clue how anything got started."

(Hmmm, idea. Not related to above)  Can someone prove reality to exist?

[Bobboau]

I think therefore I am.

therefore, some sort of reality exists.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

fair weather faith people are just ****ing weak in character, if there is a god then there is a god even when your life is doing well. stick to your ****ing guns, pick a side.

That's another way of putting it, yeah.

[Bobboau]

I can at least respect people who stick to their principals even if they are wrong,
someone who is willing to challenge their beliefs accept that they have been wrong and change there reasoning are tantamount to gods of respectability.
but someone who changes there beliefs just to make themselves feel more comfortable, someone who finds themselves in a harder situation and just finds religion and uses it as a crutch so they don't have to actually accept, let alone deal with, there problems, those people just sicken me.

fair weather faithers, you suck.

[Scotty]

I think therefore I am.

therefore, some sort of reality exists.

How do you know, and why would that apply to anyone else?  If anyone stops thinking for even the briefest moment, does that mean they are not?

How can you prove, without a doubt, reality exists?

[Turambar]

I think therefore I am.

therefore, some sort of reality exists.

How do you know, and why would that apply to anyone else?  If anyone stops thinking for even the briefest moment, does that mean they are not?

How can you prove, without a doubt, reality exists?

we can't, but it seems like we're all here, that we're all our own people, and not figments of each others' imaginations, so why not play along?

[Spicious]

I think this is rather appropriate:

As evidence of the above premise, I offer one version of a typical television news story heard each year on the final Friday of Lent:
"Today is Good Friday, observed by Christians worldwide as a day that commemorates the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose death redeemed the sins of mankind."

Here is the way it should be written:
"Today is Good Friday, observed worldwide by Jesus buffs as the day on which the popular, bearded cultural figure, sometimes referred to as The Messiah, was allegedly crucified and according to legend died for mankind's so-called sins. Today kicks off a 'holy' weekend that culminates on Easter Sunday, when, it is widely believed, this dead 'savior' who also, by the way, claimed to be the son of a sky-dwelling, invisible being known as God mysteriously 'rose from the dead.'

"According to the legend, by volunteering to be killed and actually going through with it, Jesus saved every person who has ever lived and every person who ever will live from an eternity of suffering in a fiery region popularly known as hell, providing so the story goes that the person to be 'saved' firmly believes this rather fanciful tale."

[Bobboau]

in order to think my mind must exist
in order to exist there must be some form of reality for it to exist in
I am thinking now, so as for right now I can say with certainty that some form of reality exists.

as for other people, well you are all just a bunch of sentient programs on the internet programed to make me think there is actually a world other than the 5 square miles I typically explore in detail in any given day, so who cares.

[Flipside]

"...and then it all went metaphysical, Dave"

[NGTM-1R]

How can you prove, without a doubt, reality exists?

I don't really have to. Operate under the assumption that it does not, and you will be swiftly removed from it. Instant corrective measures for those who decided the rules weren't real.

[TrashMan]

prove there is a god.

checkmate!

I don't have to, since religion is not about proving anything to you.
You fail.

[Bobboau]

but I'm not religious. and you are the person believing in a positive with no prove for. and trying to influence national policy based on that belief.

[TrashMan]

Oh, I got proof. Just not your kind of proof...or at least not something I can reproduce. Should that bother me at all?

What do I care if I can prove to you the moon is not made of cheese or not if I know that it's not? I know what is, as for you, search for the truth if you want, don't if you don't want to.


Speaking of which, people will always try to influence the world based on what they think. It's human nature.

[Kosh]

Oh, I got proof. Just not your kind of proof...or at least not something I can reproduce. Should that bother me at all?

Since when was there more than one kind of proof?

[Turambar]

So Trashman has proof, but none of us can see it.

Sounds like delusion to me.

[iamzack]

There's a pill for that.

[TrashMan]

So Trashman has proof, but none of us can see it.

No, I mean - I had enough proof to convince me, BUT I doubt it would convince you OR you would even regard it as proof.


Let me give you an example.
I tell you your mother is a filthy whore. Now, you know your mother better than me, you know her routine, and you know she doesn't really have time or inclination for whoring. Yet trying to prove it to me would be either exceptionally difficult or downright impossible, and not to mention a total waste of time.