[IronBeer]

Of the top of my head, cult seems to have been used a lot by religious leaders to discourage people from changing their beliefs. No one wants to be labeled as occult, so they stick to the old ways.

There's a distinct difference between something being "occult" or something being a "cult". "Occult" concerns magic, a "cult" is a negatively-loaded word that more accurately describes an emerging religion typically led by a charismatic demagogue who is usually regarded as some sort of Messiah.

[Flipside]

Well, 'Occult' was bundled up with things like 'Pagan' to be considered in the same league as 'Satanic', that was a little bit of public relations done by the Church in the 1500's or so

Like all things, Religion has its good eggs and its bad eggs, there have been religious figures out there who have done great good in the name of their Faith, there are also those who have done great evil, but I think, when you get to big picture, you'll find out that has much more to do with who they were than what they believed.

Edit: It's kind of nice to think of Ghandi having a chat with Mother Theresa somewhere, despite the fact that, according to their religions, that would be impossible, one of them should be receiving punishment for being on the wrong team.

[IronBeer]

Well, 'Occult' was bundled up with things like 'Pagan' to be considered in the same league as 'Satanic', that was a little bit of public relations done by the Church in the 1500's or so

I never said that what the Church did was right- just clarifying some vocabulary. 

Edit: It's kind of nice to think of Ghandi having a chat with Mother Theresa somewhere, despite the fact that, according to their religions, that would be impossible, one of them should be receiving punishment for being on the wrong team.

I say that anybody who does good- legitimate Good (everybody should know what that is)- is on the "right team", regardless of their religious beliefs.

[Flipside]

That's what I've always liked to think, if there is someone 'up there' who judges us, it's a judgement of the person themselves, that it doesn't matter what form their belief takes.

Thing is, all of us do 'evil' everyday, we are all an unwilling or unknowing party to it in some way or another. My taxes pay for the bombs that are dropped on Houses in the Middle East, but then, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair percentage of religious donations in the Middle East find their way into the hands of those who would detonate bombs in the middle of a shopping Mall in Iraq, everyone touches 'evil' in one way or another, and I do not believe in the concept of evil done in a good cause. However, that is not going to go away, one man can change the world, several million however? No chance.

So it really boils down to trying to be the best you can for yourself.

[IronBeer]

That's what I've always liked to think, if there is someone 'up there' who judges us, it's a judgement of the person themselves, that it doesn't matter what form their belief takes.

Thing is, all of us do 'evil' everyday, we are all an unwilling or unknowing party to it in some way or another. My taxes pay for the bombs that are dropped on Houses in the Middle East, but then, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair percentage of religious donations in the Middle East find their way into the hands of those who would detonate bombs in the middle of a shopping Mall in Iraq, everyone touches 'evil' in one way or another, and I do not believe in the concept of evil done in a good cause. However, that is not going to go away, one man can change the world, several million however? No chance.

So it really boils down to trying to be the best you can for yourself.

You're exactly right- on all 3 points, really. God's judgment is something that we can never really understand, but the most inscrutable part of His judgment is His capacity to forgive. From what I understand, winding up in Hell actually requires some rather serious effort on the part of the person in question- that is to say, they have to consistently and strongly reject God in their lives. And I'm not necessarily talking about Atheists- the presence of God is something else. (Don't ask me what it is, because I really can't explain it, and don't really know on a rational level). Being human means that our lives are suffused with evil and sin- it's an unfortunate and immutable fact (for believers, anyway). But that doesn't matter to God, for He alone knows whether we are good or bad people, and is willing to forgive anything. (I've heard whispers that some writings suggest that even Hell itself is not eternal). A given person cannot truly even judge themselves...
Anyway... we should probably get back to talking about the institution of religion before we get a moderator upset...

[Wobble73]

I voted yes! Certain aspects of religious institutions are holding back the human race and our progress, but that's not the only thing holding us back. Politicians too!

[castor]

I think religion is pushing us forward more than holding back (in global, long-term scope).
This mainly due to the meditative and introspective aspects of religion (take this discussion and other similar debates here as for an example). Apart from religion, these things can be hard to come by for many (at least in western cultures very little attention is paid for them).

Thing is, the picture is distorted - only religious zealots get any attention. What goes on behind the scenes in completely invisible to those not involved. Which is natural too, because anyones religion is mostly a personal thing.

[NGTM-1R]

You're kidding right? That's the opposite of the baptist(s) I know, and that's all that their church youth group is.

I told you; the church has very lax internal government and no mechanism for kicking a rogue pastor out, so this is totally possible. Baptist, as a label, is not very useful because the church has no doctrinal control of someone after they take their exam for certification as a Baptist preacher.

Alternately, you may be confusing Epsicopal with Baptist, which is reasonable. The outward trappings are the same and you would not be the first.

[Bobboau]

prove religion is not holding us back.

[Wobble73]

prove religion is not holding us back.

Let's play devil's advocate for a bit (poor choice of words I suppose), but why does everything have to be proven! Isn't that the point about faith!



I have no problem with faith, it's religion (organised) I have a problem with!

[colecampbell666]

You're kidding right? That's the opposite of the baptist(s) I know, and that's all that their church youth group is.

I told you; the church has very lax internal government and no mechanism for kicking a rogue pastor out, so this is totally possible. Baptist, as a label, is not very useful because the church has no doctrinal control of someone after they take their exam for certification as a Baptist preacher.

Alternately, you may be confusing Epsicopal with Baptist, which is reasonable. The outward trappings are the same and you would not be the first.

If I'm confusing it it's my friend's fault, he told me.

[TrashMan]

prove religion is not holding us back.

Prove that it is.

[Kosh]

prove religion is not holding us back.

Prove that it is.

There was something called the "Dark Ages", burning people at the stake for stating findings that opposed church doctrine, the recent rise of superstitious nonsense in western countries which leads people to question the benefits of science and technologyand remain skeptical of science in general.

[IronBeer]

prove religion is not holding us back.

Prove that it is.

There was something called the "Dark Ages", burning people at the stake for stating findings that opposed church doctrine, the recent rise of superstitious nonsense in western countries which leads people to question the benefits of science and technologyand remain skeptical of science in general.

That was then; this is now.
 But on the other hand, I'm not presently in a position (nor am possessed of a particular desire) to really argue one way or another. But perhaps it would be a most efficient use of my (increasingly limited, accursed engineering curriculum) time to throw some more charcoal on this simmering fire. My most significant argument against religion's efficacy at holding us back is its (apparently- I may be wrong) diminishing influence in global affairs. I'm not denying the horror of the Inquisition or what happened to scientists such as Galileo. But, given a similar set of circumstances today, with one Church holding great sway in geopolitical happenings, I don't really know what their true impact would be. Then again, it's possible I do know, but I refuse to acknowledge the truth of such a scenario...   

[Androgeos Exeunt]

In my opinion, religion's purpose is to provide moral support to the individual, not exist as a force. The ten commandments, for example, can all be summed up to mean: be loyal and don't do anything that may harm another individual.

Christianity is almost integral to the life of one of my aunt, for instance. She took up a religion because she needed moral support after facing two failed relationships. Another aunt of mine has a religion, but she never, ever tries to persuade people to join it.

About six months ago, when the world economy began its plunge, I read a newspaper report that more people are turning to religion as a result of the economic depression. I wouldn't call these people loyal, nor would I call them competent, but at least they use religion as a form of moral support.

[Bobboau]

prove religion is not holding us back.

Prove that it is.

prove there is a god.

checkmate!

[Bobboau]

IAbout six months ago, when the world economy began its plunge, I read a newspaper report that more people are turning to religion as a result of the economic depression. I wouldn't call these people loyal, nor would I call them competent, but at least they use religion as a form of moral support.

fair weather faith people are just ****ing weak in character, if there is a god then there is a god even when your life is doing well. stick to your ****ing guns, pick a side.

[Kosh]

That was then; this is now.

The growing superstition in certain western countries IS now. Hell we had a president who for 8 years based many policies on blocking or meddling with science and whenever he had the chance he would push his anti-science credentials.

My most significant argument against religion's efficacy at holding us back is its (apparently- I may be wrong) diminishing influence in global affairs

The Israeli-Palestinian situation disagrees with you, the northern ireland situation disagrees with you, the wars in the former yugoslavia disagrees with you, 9/11 disagrees with you, the situation in pakistan disagrees with you...........

[Scotty]

In short, all the nut-job religious wackjobs disagree.  That does not mean religion as an institution.

[Kosh]

Not all the people in those conflicts were wackjobs, unless everyone there is a wackjob......