[iamzack]

If anything, it's age discrimination.

I get offended a little bit by stuff like this. Like, there is a mall in the are where if you are under 18 or 21 (I forget), you can't be there unchaperoned.

I don't loiter or vandalize stuff or cause trouble in public places. I don't know anyone that does.

So, yeah, I feel unfairly discriminated against.

[Mr. Vega]

Does this mean that no sounds at all can be played outside because they may disrupt others?

Is my neighbor infringing my rights because I find his lawnmower annoying?

I'm just curious what the overall argument here is.

Because it's specifically designed to be used against teenagers and children. Because you're treating human beings like uncooperative dogs. Because maybe every society on earth would go to hell if it adhered to the "you can do whatever the hell you want so long as it doesn't violate an extremely double-standard-based and narrow interpretation of the law" position that you endorse.

If your neighbor wanted to mow his lawn with a noisy thing so he could mow his lawn, that's one thing. If he wanted to mow his lawn with that mower because it was specifically designed to be extremely painful to your childrens' ears because he hates your children and doesn't want to see them anywhere near his lawn, ever, then what he's doing is wrong, period. Do you disagree with that?

[Polpolion]

If this is implemented in America, regardless of the fact that I don't loiter, I will buy a massive speaker and blare white noise extremely loud in front of the places that do this.

Sure, it's not like the kids are angels, but this noise device can't exactly discriminate between the loiterers and the people who aren't doing anything wrong, can it?

[esarai]

It's illegal in that it qualifies as harassment/abuse. It is intentionally done to cause physical and/or psychological distress which is in most jurisdictions illegal.

It is unconstitutional in that it hinders lawful assembly in a public place.

And that store owner could still be considered guilty of harassment.

[Mr. Vega]

If anything, it's age discrimination.

I get offended a little bit by stuff like this. Like, there is a mall in the are where if you are under 18 or 21 (I forget), you can't be there unchaperoned.

I don't loiter or vandalize stuff or cause trouble in public places. I don't know anyone that does.

So, yeah, I feel unfairly discriminated against.

You ever seen Hot Fuzz? You'd love it. It's mostly a parody of buddy cop movies but the whole point of the movie IMO was that the adult leaders of the town had accused teenage robbers of being responsible for the murders, when really it was the adults who had been murdering people, including scores of teenagers, so as to eliminate anyone who made their community look bad in their eyes. And then all the guilty adults get killed by policemen in a massive gunfight.

[Nuclear1]

Yep, this is a bad thing.

Liberator and Trashman hate freedom.

Oh, I like freedom.
I just hate young people that have no decency, culture and respect.

QFT!

Arrrgh those damn kids!

"Oh, I like freedom.
I just only want it for people who don't do things I hate.
Like stand in front of a building."

ARGH those damn kids.

[Mr. Vega]

Blue Lion: People have the right to do whatever they want, so long as it isn't the expense of other peoples rights, like the right to congregate as they please. Your issue seems to be therefore that people younger than 21 should have no rights at all. What are you in this for? To keep up your conservative credentials? To preserve power relationships? I'm really curious what your worldview looks like.

[Mr. Vega]

Yep, this is a bad thing.

Liberator and Trashman hate freedom.

Oh, I like freedom.
I just hate young people that have no decency, culture and respect.

QFT!

Arrrgh those damn kids!

"Oh, I like freedom.
I just only want it for people who don't do things I hate."

EXACTLY.

*highfives Nuclear*

[Mr. Vega]

If this is implemented in America, regardless of the fact that I don't loiter, I will buy a massive speaker and blare white noise extremely loud in front of the places that do this.

Sure, it's not like the kids are angels, but this noise device can't exactly discriminate between the loiterers and the people who aren't doing anything wrong, can it?

If this happens in America all that's gonna happen is that it will last about a month before it's shut down by student activism. I personally am itching for something on the homefront I can have some fun protesting (since nobody gives a **** about poverty so best you can do there is volunteer at shelters and food banks. Their paying jobs actually aren't half bad though), even if only for a few days.

[Ghostavo]

Liberator and Trashman hate freedom.

Oh, I like freedom.
I just hate young people that have no decency, culture and respect.

Because everybody under 25 has no decency, culture or respect....

Seriously, do you even think before you post?

[Blue Lion]

It's illegal in that it qualifies as harassment/abuse. It is intentionally done to cause physical and/or psychological distress which is in most jurisdictions illegal.

I get the distinct impression there are slightly more qualifiers on harassment than the causing of psychological distress. Scary movies do that.

It is unconstitutional in that it hinders lawful assembly in a public place.

No, it doesn't. I swear you can go there and assemble. No one will arrest you.

I'm no legal expert on this, but I'll go out on a limb and say having a business make a sound will not constitute harassment.

My AC makes noise and I'm sure it would be super annoying to have a meeting below it. I don't think anyone will be calling me up arguing I've infringed their rights.

[Blue Lion]

Blue Lion: People have the right to do whatever they want, so long as it isn't the expense of other peoples rights, like the right to congregate as they please.

And you would be incorrect. Not on the congregation part, on the "I can do whatever I want" part.

Your issue seems to be therefore that people younger than 21 should have no rights at all.

..... No? I'm arguing no right has been removed. Again, you can go stand there. If it wasn't your right, they'd call the cops instead of spending money on devices.

What are you in this for? To keep up your conservative credentials? To preserve power relationships?

Calling me conservative is the funniest thing ever. EVER. You have made my day.

I think I'll walk around and find people who make noises I don't care for and demand they turn them off so I can assemble there.

[Mr. Vega]

Liberator and Trashman hate freedom.

Oh, I like freedom.
I just hate young people that have no decency, culture and respect.

Because everybody under 25 has no decency, culture or respect....

Seriously, do you even think before you post?

Well I'm 20, so I must be a real ****tard judging from your opinion. I mean, I work in homeless shelters over the summer, pay or no pay, I don't annoy people for the hell of it, I hold doors open and say "excuse me" and "thank you", and more importantly I don't think society should treat people like **** because I personally don't like them, which is more than I can say for you, Trashman. But I'm under 25, so I guess none of that matters, aye?

Know what, have you ever had a single thought after the age of 25 that didn't come from somebody else? Answer that for me.

[Ghostavo]

There are laws against noise in public places.
This example is even worse since the noise's intent is to disturb.


Then again, if the device's noise was heard by everybody how many people would still support it?

[Mr. Vega]

Calling me conservative is the funniest thing ever. EVER. You have made my day.

I think I'll walk around and find people who make noises I don't care for and demand they turn them off so I can assemble there.

I'm sorry, it's just that you always seem to support the side with the power in every argument (not that so-called Liberals don't do that all the time too).

But my analogy stands. If your neighbor wanted to mow his lawn with a noisy thing so he could mow his lawn, that's one thing. If he wanted to mow his lawn with that mower because it was specifically designed to be extremely painful to your childrens' ears because he hates your children and doesn't want to see them anywhere near his lawn, ever, then what he's doing is wrong, period. This device will be used against teenagers who have committed no crime, and who have made no disruption.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Let's go under the assumption that the property belongs to the building owner (usually the case but the sidewalk is a right of way owned by the city).  Even if he does have the right to play it most places it would only be allowable at certain times.  For example where I live you can have your music on until 10PM them you have to turn it down so it doesn't bother anyone.  Of course where I live they also passed an ordinance that 3 or more juveniles in one area constitute a gang and can be made to disperse or arrested.  


None of this still addresses the point of people lawfully using the sidewalk.  

There is also the point that these things were designed for a specific intent of being a "less than lethal" deterrent for crowd control.  Now what would happen if you put up a pepper gas sprayer instead?  

As for the kids destroying them don't think it's going to happen.  They are pretty much bullet proof.  At least the prototype I saw a few years back was.  

[Mr. Vega]

And if you don't think that's not the case, that it won't be abused horribly, then you're just being extremely cynical about teenagers and being extremely trustful of grumpy adults. Forgive me if your double standards made me mistake you for a typical conservative.

[Blue Lion]

There are laws against noise in public places.
This example is even worse since the noise's intent is to disturb.

Yes but "public places" aren't pin drop quiet.

I can go out and read the Bible in a loud squeaky voice and I doubt I will get arrested.

Then again, if the device's noise was heard by everybody how many people would still support it?

Things make noise all the time. Some businesses have loud equipment or play music.

So is the issue the noise or is it the intent to get you to leave?

[Mr. Vega]

Blue Lion, INTENT MATTERS.

[esarai]

But for a scary movie, the person has elected to it.
In harassment, the target person(s) have not consented to the distress and the party perpetrating the harassment does it with the intent of causing said unwanted distress for a certain end. So yes, scary movies could be considered harassment, but as the viewing party expects to be scared, it is not illegal.  

I may go there and assemble, but I will leave in five minutes because my head hurts so much.  It prevents people below the age of 25 from assembling through use of physical pain, not through use of legal action. The articles granting the right to assemble do not specify that prohibition of assembly can only be accomplished by arrest and that all other methods are fair game.  They say, flat out, that inhibition of assemble in general is illegal. Since no one method is specified, we must conclude all methods are prohibited.  This means that anything intended to prevent people gathering, no matter what it is, as long as the gathering is lawful, is illegal.

True, a business making a sound does not constitute harassment if it is a side effect of the business's normal operation. The moment you begin to intentionally disturb any party without their consent, the moment you go beyond what is normal/acceptable with an intent to cause upset or disturbance, you have entered the realm of harassment. If you were to turn on your stereo at max when someone has requested it be turned down, that is harassment. If you crank over your AC when someone has requested it be turned off, that is harassment. If a business starts making a sound that is intended to drive people off, that is harassment through its aggressive nature.