[Blue Lion]

Ok then, since you don't seem to be using the "It MUST be ok if it's legal" argument anymore, why then? Principle of private property?

Because it can be legal.

If it's legal to stand in front of his store in a pink dress and do the Charleston, I don't care if the owner does it. He can call everyone Phil or fill his store with Nazi flags. If it's legal, I don't care.

The amount I care about teens who want to stand in front of stores is about the same I have for owners who don't want kids there..... which is right about zero.

My only fallback position is legality. So far no one has really proven it's illegal nor have they proven it violates a constitutional right.

I find it very odd that here and in the piracy thread I somehow have to defend the idea of "Do legal things. Don't do illegal things"

And before we go any further, do you honestly think prejudice has nothing to do with these devices' use?

Oh I know it does. But replace young people with old people, or bikers, or guys who wear fedoras and chaps the argument is still the same.

[DarkBasilisk]

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Extreme exhibit A: Jim Crow. Legal? Hells yeah up until 1954. Did that make it ok?

It's a shame we didn't pass new laws and amendments to change that. I think it's really sad that discrimination is allowed to go on legally.

What? They changed the laws? It's illegal now? The hell you say.

 

I'm just wondering at this point. BL you seem to almost be taking the simultaneous stance of "It's the law, stop complaining about it" and "Bad laws get changed eventually." These two aren't as compatible as it would seem. Complaints and unrest about a law sometimes just turn into blowing hot air, but they're also the first step in actually changing a law. People get pissed off, complain, other people realize they're annoyed too, and this cycles until you have enough people that the system gets moved to change.

[Blue Lion]

I'm just wondering at this point. BL you seem to almost be taking the simultaneous stance of "It's the law, stop complaining about it" and "Bad laws get changed eventually." These two aren't as compatible as it would seem. Complaints and unrest about a law sometimes just turn into blowing hot air, but they're also the first step in actually changing a law. People get pissed off, complain, other people realize they're annoyed too, and this cycles until you have enough people that the system gets moved to change.

And you would be incorrect.

Just because you dislike a law or think it is bad doesn't give you the right to just ignore it or somehow get out of punishment for it.

"Oh no officer, you should let him go. It is possible at some point in the future this law may be overturned."

The civil rights leaders? Broke laws and went to jail. They didn't skip out on them. If Rosa Parks can take her punishment for breaking the law, so can everyone else.

[DarkBasilisk]

I never said ignore it. This thread hasn't been advocating us all going to the Netherlands and bashing the crap out of shops, people have been arguing and voicing opinion on how stupid the whole situation is.

Although on that note you can ignore laws you don't like, just expect reprisals That's proper civil disobedience when you do it to make a statement about things.

[Ghostavo]

I find it very odd that here and in the piracy thread I somehow have to defend the idea of "Do legal things. Don't do illegal things"

Nobody is arguing that. The arguments are if either those things are legal or not and depending on the answer to that either it should be legal or not.

[Mars]

This shouldn't be a question of laws, it should be a question of ethics.

[peterv]

This shouldn't be a question of laws, it should be a question of ethics.

This is exactly what it should be 

[Blue Lion]

I never said ignore it. This thread hasn't been advocating us all going to the Netherlands and bashing the crap out of shops, people have been arguing and voicing opinion on how stupid the whole situation is.

Although on that note you can ignore laws you don't like, just expect reprisals That's proper civil disobedience when you do it to make a statement about things.

People seem to be confused by that. Legality and illegality are almost secondary to their own ideas of right and wrong.

People don't like them? Change the noise laws!

I just find it kinda funny that there are people here mad cause these guys disrespect kids but don't get the connect that they're citizens too and can change laws.

This is what some of these arguments sound like (The following is a dramatization)

"Man those old guys think we're nothing but lazy and worthless kids. They put up these noise things to drive us away!"

"Why don't we change the laws to make it illegal?"

"Nah, let's just throw rocks at it til it breaks"

[Blue Lion]

This shouldn't be a question of laws, it should be a question of ethics.

Ah so we shouldn't base it on our systems of laws, we should base it on your morality. We should ask you what you feel about all things and then act on them accordingly.

[peterv]

BL perhaps you're forgeting how powerfull kids are on changing laws and how exactly they react to actions of pure and unjustified violence.

[Blue Lion]

I find it very odd that here and in the piracy thread I somehow have to defend the idea of "Do legal things. Don't do illegal things"

Nobody is arguing that. The arguments are if either those things are legal or not and depending on the answer to that either it should be legal or not.

Ok, give me a good reason why it would be made illegal. (Besides "we pass a law to make them illegal")

[Blue Lion]

BL perhaps you're forgeting how powerfull kids are on changing laws and how exactly they react to actions of pure and unjustified violence.

No, I do. That's the point!

If you're not lazy gits, get a law passed!

[peterv]

It's exactly what i would do, and i would base it on ethics.

[Blue Lion]

It's exactly what i would do, and i would base it on ethics.

Ethics? You mean a set of morals? Obviously not just one person but ones a community may have? A set of rules they come up with that decide right and wrong and the punishments on the wrongs? And maybe a place to, let's say, "judge" if those rules are good?

That would be awesome.

Too bad all were stuck with are these 'laws' and 'courts'. 

[Mars]

This shouldn't be a question of laws, it should be a question of ethics.

Ah so we shouldn't base it on our systems of laws, we should base it on your morality. We should ask you what you feel about all things and then act on them accordingly.

Laws are supposed to be a reflection of a societies ethics.

[Blue Lion]

This shouldn't be a question of laws, it should be a question of ethics.

Ah so we shouldn't base it on our systems of laws, we should base it on your morality. We should ask you what you feel about all things and then act on them accordingly.

Laws are supposed to be a reflection of a societies ethics.

So then it would be a question of laws.

If laws don't come from the ethics of the community they're for, where do they come from?

[peterv]

Ethics? You mean a set of morals? Obviously not just one person but ones a community may have? A set of rules they come up with that decide right and wrong and the punishments on the wrongs? And maybe a place to, let's say, "judge" if those rules are good?

That would be awesome.

Too bad all were stuck with are these 'laws' and 'courts'. 

Yea, you know, democratic things. The ones that set the rules to "laws" and "courts".

EDIT: in a democracy offcourse 

[DarkBasilisk]

I find it very odd that here and in the piracy thread I somehow have to defend the idea of "Do legal things. Don't do illegal things"

Nobody is arguing that. The arguments are if either those things are legal or not and depending on the answer to that either it should be legal or not.

Ok, give me a good reason why it would be made illegal. (Besides "we pass a law to make them illegal")

I gave several. Look back.

[Mars]

Lion, it's obvious you aren't gonna change your mind, so I'm not gonna bother

[Blue Lion]

Ok, give me a good reason why it would be made illegal. (Besides "we pass a law to make them illegal")

I gave several. Look back.

Unfortunately, you really didn't. I mean if you want I go back to the post and show you where you didn't.