[peterv]

1. Can you seriously realize the deference between "no mention" and "almost no mention".
2. Can you seriously read the Wiki's article beyond the first line?
3. Can you seriously realize that the mosquito is designed for people younger than 25?     
4. Can you seriously realize the difference between the terms society and genetarion?
5. Can you seriously point exactly were i switched arguments?

And finally, can i seriously go to sleep now?

[The E]

I'll be damned if I let this post go to waste

Now, I'm going to use German statistics for this, I hope you don't mind.

Teen crimes rates

Red bar are children, blue adolescent, yellow young adults. As you can see, those numbers are either falling or constant.

Teen gang rates

Don't know about that (The information is buried in a 478 page pdf.). Teen criminality, however, went down. (source (german pdf): http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2006/download/pks-jb_2006_bka.pdf )

Teen sexual activity
Teen pregnancy

I'm lumping those together, since you can't get the second without the first. No pretty graph here, I'm afraid. Anyway, the federal statistics office (Statistisches Bundesamt) concluded that the number of pregnancies is declining. In 2004, 8.3 of 1000 teenagers were pregnant. In 2005, 7.9 out of 1000. This trend continues unabated. (source: http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/ )
As for sexual activity, there is an increase. People start doing it earlier. I'm not quite sure what that signifies in this context, though. (source (pdf, in german): http://www.bzga.de/pdf.php?id=ab480ab64494cb393c5c0cc3f8a1e181 )

Teen drug use

Seems to be going down wrt Alcohol, Tobacco, Cannabis (after an all-time high in 2004) (source (again, german pdf): http://www.bzga.de/pdf.php?id=710c698ad2ec70e4f696aa4a68dec87b )

Teen depression and suicide rates

No reliable data for Teen depression (At least, none that I could find).
Suicide rate seems to be steady (I've looked at the data from 2007-2005, more recent data was unavailable.) (source: http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/ )

Teen emotional disorders

See above.

Teen educational grade reports
Teen dropout rates
Teen "discipline" rates in schools
Teen work rates (numbers of hours, length of time working at one, number of write ups, disciplines)
Teen graduation rates

Finding those will take more intelligence than my sleep-deprived brain is currently capable of producing. Will be added later.

I could go on and list more, but it's almost pointless. No one has really listed a good comparison for grading two generations against each other.

Even if you had all that data and compared it to another generation's youth you could STILL argue that it wasn't a complete picture of that set of youths because it didn't factor in things like technology rates, current economic and political climates, wars, social movements etc etc etc.

How large an age group do you select? 10-18? 19? 20? 13? Do you track the rates of those kids along their youth or do you take a snapshot at a certain point in time?

Pithy summary: You can't grade a generation's youth with a quick value or letter grade. For guys who sat there and said "every generation says the current youth are 'worse' and they're wrong", they're completely ignoring that their generation will probably be saying it about the next and all in all it doesn't matter because you can't prove it anyways.

I'm not saying that. I plan on acknowledging the fact that the next generation will be different, maybe even incomprehensible. That isn't neccessarily worse.

[Blue Lion]

1. Can you seriously realize the deference between "no mention" and "almost no mention".

Yes, that's why I wrote almost no mention instead of no mention. Anything else on how you got caught up in the current argument and forgot about the device?

2. Can you seriously read the Wiki's article beyond the first line?

You mean the part where it talks about who uses violence, the law about violence and religion/war and violence? Yea I can.

What I fail to see is anywhere in that article where it mentions violence can be any force that doesn't inflict pain. I'm gonna guess the reason it doesn't say that is because then everything would be violence.

3. Can you seriously realize that the mosquito is designed for people younger than 25? 

Can you not understand that that alone doesn't make it criminal? Is annoying young people illegal?
   

4. Can you seriously realize the difference between the terms society and genetarion?

Yes I can. That's why it's so hilarious that you'll call a society stupid. A society, a group of many generations of people combined together. You'll call all of them stupid but to single one out is somehow wrong or impossible?

You're calling 1930s Europe stupid which means you have to be calling the young people, adults and old people stupid. Even if you argued it was just the adults that were stupid, that means you're calling the young people not stupid. That's a comparison.

You can't call a society stupid and then say you aren't calling any particular age group in there stupid.

5. Can you seriously point exactly were i switched arguments?

Whoops, missed this one.

Yes, when you went from being able to judge an entire society to saying it was impossible to judge just one section of a society because it was impossible.

And finally, can i seriously go to sleep now?

I dunno, can you?

[General Battuta]

Agh, The E, those are absolute rates, not per capita!

Which makes it all the more impressive that they're falling...unless the population is falling too.

[Blue Lion]

I'll be damned if I let this post go to waste

Almost every graph you showed dealt with 1 generation.

The one that looked like it had multiple generations I couldn't read because it was in German.

You can't compare teen pregnancy from 2004 to 2005 because it's the same generation. You have to compare to comperable data for the 1990s, 80s, 50s. 1870s, 1730s etc etc etc.

Also, no teen pregnancy and teen sexual activity are not linked because sex education can lower teen pregnancy even when teen sexual activity goes up.

I'm not saying that. I plan on acknowledging the fact that the next generation will be different, maybe even incomprehensible. That isn't neccessarily worse.

But what are you comparing it to to say that they aren't worse?

[The E]

Agh, The E, those are absolute rates, not per capita!

Which makes it all the more impressive that they're falling...unless the population is falling too.

Germanys' Population has been steady at ~82.3 Million people for a few years now. It actually increased slightly since 1990 (~79.9 Million people back then). (There is data from before 1990, of course. But that doesn't include the former German Democratic Republic)

Almost every graph you showed dealt with 1 generation.

The one that looked like it had multiple generations I couldn't read because it was in German.

You can't compare teen pregnancy from 2004 to 2005 because it's the same generation. You have to compare to comperable data for the 1990s, 80s, 50s. 1870s, 1730s etc etc etc.

Sorry, obvious oversight. The data I found for teenage sexuality went as far back as the 1980s, but the trend is the same. People start having sex at a younger age.

Also, no teen pregnancy and teen sexual activity are not linked because sex education can lower teen pregnancy even when teen sexual activity goes up.

The problem there is that my main source, the federal statistics office, didn't collect the specific data for teenage pregnancies before 2001. (However, the absolute number of childbirths from 1990 onwards, for mothers aged 15 - 45, remained steady at ~1400 children born per 1000 Women.)

But what are you comparing it to to say that they aren't worse?

To myself, and my generation? Point is, teenagers will always differ from their parents, sometimes in ways the older, established persons do not approve of. Doesn't mean that western culture is going down the drain.

[TrashMan]

Ergo, it stands to reason that young people won't behave the same in different cultures.

Probable.

Undeniable

It also stands to reason that some ways of bringing up kids are better than others.

Unproved assertion.

Rock hard fact.
Or are you saying there are no such things as bad parents and bad parenting? That it doesn't matter what you do and how you bring up kids?

I think America's biggest culture issue is too much religion forced down the throats of people who might otherwise be perfectly normal.

After all, countries which have much less religiosity are also more peaceful and progressive. Hmm...

Actually, the other way around as far as I can see.

Common knowledge. That's quite a dangerous phrase. Ether was once common knowledge. So was the flat earth, the geocenteric universe. It's a pretty shibboleth of the conservative/paleoconservative mindset you have, to be sure. But it's foolish.

I'm denying your points.
If I am, the conclusions are not rock-solid. (Poor wording kills arguments.)
If so, then you are blind and ignoring something obviously unscientific. (Poor wording kills arguments!)

Denying my points? You're denying common sense and logic then. The two points are no more up to debate than the assertion that the sun rises each morning is.

Assumption 1: By generalizing information, it becomes possible to determine whether a given trend is global, or local. TrashMan et al. claim that the behaviour of young people is degenerating globally, when all they have are local observations. Statistics could be a massive help to determine if they are right.

Actually, given that I live in a city that thrives on tourism, I get to speak with people from all over the world about this issue.

[Mars]

Assumption 1: By generalizing information, it becomes possible to determine whether a given trend is global, or local. TrashMan et al. claim that the behaviour of young people is degenerating globally, when all they have are local observations. Statistics could be a massive help to determine if they are right.

Actually, given that I live in a city that thrives on tourism, I get to speak with people from all over the world about this issue.

And I smoke crack. I smoke all kinda crack. I like crack. Therefore all crack is good.

[The E]

Rock hard fact.
Or are you saying there are no such things as bad parents and bad parenting? That it doesn't matter what you do and how you bring up kids?

Oh, bad parenting does undoubtedly exist. But since good parents may see their kids go "bad", and bad parents see their kids go "good", making generalized assumptions about children based solely on their upbringing is questionable, IMHO. In order to determine the best way to raise a child, one must take into account the childs' personality, the parents' personality, how both parties react to a given style of parenting, and what community they live in.
To me, the question isn't "Does bad parenting exist?", its "Does the existence of bad children prove anything about the culture they live in?".

Assumption 1: By generalizing information, it becomes possible to determine whether a given trend is global, or local. TrashMan et al. claim that the behaviour of young people is degenerating globally, when all they have are local observations. Statistics could be a massive help to determine if they are right.

Actually, given that I live in a city that thrives on tourism, I get to speak with people from all over the world about this issue.

So, tourists (and their opinions, which may be unfounded) are a representative sample about the conditions in the place they come from?

[Colonol Dekker]

Arguement / debate... fine line. Keep on the right side of it people

[TrashMan]

Oh, bad parenting does undoubtedly exist. But since good parents may see their kids go "bad", and bad parents see their kids go "good", making generalized assumptions about children based solely on their upbringing is questionable, IMHO. In order to determine the best way to raise a child, one must take into account the childs' personality, the parents' personality, how both parties react to a given style of parenting, and what community they live in.
To me, the question isn't "Does bad parenting exist?", its "Does the existence of bad children prove anything about the culture they live in?".

Given that sociology treats cultural influence on children as a fact, I'd say yes.

So, tourists (and their opinions, which may be unfounded) are a representative sample about the conditions in the place they come from?

Everyones oppinions may be unfounded. When scientists talk to people each and every one they talk too can be flat out lying or delusional too. Anything that involves people and their observations is subject to being totally skewed and/or incorrect. But we all have to start from somewhere.

When's the last time you talked to people form other countries about this specific issue anyway?
On what do you base your oppinion that the problem doesn't exist?

[Mobius]

SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP UNTIL YOU GET AN EDUCATION.

Calm down with this nonsense. Capitalization is childish.

I refuse to pay attention to that.

[Colonol Dekker]

If you're reading this Mr K, i'm definitely making that sign up for the next HLP London

[The E]

When's the last time you talked to people form other countries about this specific issue anyway?
On what do you base your oppinion that the problem doesn't exist?

You do have me there. The place I live in isn't anywhere near the kind of tourist trap you seem to be living in, so my interaction with foreigners is pretty much limited to Internet debates.
My opinion, such as it is, is that the assumption that just because children/teenagers of today behave differently than children/teenagers of generations past they are automagically behaving worse than we had at that same age is fundamentally flawed.
I base this on the following:
Assuming that teenage behaviour is fundamentally unchanged in this generation compared to past generations, the only thing that has changed is technology. Todays teenagers have far more options to live out their teenageness than before, and thereby fueling the assumption that teenagers today are somehow worse. So, you have a certain amount of real troublemakers that has been holding steady (or is actually declining, according to the statistics I dug up earlier), but the trouble they make is blown out of proportion because you hear more about it.

So, is my opinion conjecture, partially unfounded and biased? Yes, absolutely. It is just biased optimistically. Why? Because I do not believe in "declining" or "disintegrating" culture, only in changing culture. I may or may not like that change, but I do not dare to presume change is bad just because it results in something different.

[TrashMan]

You do have me there. The place I live in isn't anywhere near the kind of tourist trap you seem to be living in, so my interaction with foreigners is pretty much limited to Internet debates.

I wasn't talking specificly about talking with foreigner, but in general. Does this topic interest you enough to talk about it with your friends? Do you even try to get informed on the subject? Did you even think much about this issue before it brought it up?

But since good parents may see their kids go "bad", and bad parents see their kids go "good", making generalized assumptions about children based solely on their upbringing is questionable

I forgot to address this earlier, so I'll just plop it in here. You are answering yourself in essence. What else has an influence on kids besides parents? Their friends, their town, their culture!
So if the parents are good but the kid turns bad, then it's obvious it's enviroment (culture) has a greater negative influence than their parents positive influence. And vice-versa.

My opinion, such as it is, is that the assumption that just because children/teenagers of today behave differently than children/teenagers of generations past they are automagically behaving worse than we had at that same age is fundamentally flawed.
I base this on the following:
Assuming that teenage behaviour is fundamentally unchanged in this generation compared to past generations, the only thing that has changed is technology. Todays teenagers have far more options to live out their teenageness than before, and thereby fueling the assumption that teenagers today are somehow worse. So, you have a certain amount of real troublemakers that has been holding steady (or is actually declining, according to the statistics I dug up earlier), but the trouble they make is blown out of proportion because you hear more about it.

That assumptions doesn't really hold water. You admit that human culture, and culture of particular countries, is constantly changing (more or less). To assume that such changes have no influence on us who live in that culture, and especially on the young, impressionable minds, defies reason.
If we are the product of our enviroment, then any changes in our enviroment will undoubtedly lead to changes in us as well.

So, is my opinion conjecture, partially unfounded and biased? Yes, absolutely. It is just biased optimistically. Why? Because I do not believe in "declining" or "disintegrating" culture, only in changing culture. I may or may not like that change, but I do not dare to presume change is bad just because it results in something different.

So what would it take for you to consider a change bad?

[General Battuta]

SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP UNTIL YOU GET AN EDUCATION.

Calm down with this nonsense. Capitalization is childish.

I refuse to pay attention to that.

This coming from the man who once filled a thread with size-eighty-million shouts of 'IDIOT!"...

But.

You're right. Capslock yelling is immature, and I should cut it out.

However, did you get the other points in the post?

(I'm sorry if it came off too personal, Mobius. I was frustrated, but I understand that not everybody knows a lot about this topic.)

[Blue Lion]

Sorry, obvious oversight. The data I found for teenage sexuality went as far back as the 1980s, but the trend is the same. People start having sex at a younger age.

So teens now are having more sex that previous generations? Some people may see that as a negative, not a positive.

The problem there is that my main source, the federal statistics office, didn't collect the specific data for teenage pregnancies before 2001. (However, the absolute number of childbirths from 1990 onwards, for mothers aged 15 - 45, remained steady at ~1400 children born per 1000 Women.)

that's a long range of ages. all the way to 45?

To myself, and my generation? Point is, teenagers will always differ from their parents, sometimes in ways the older, established persons do not approve of. Doesn't mean that western culture is going down the drain.

Well you can't argue they aren't worse and then argue there is no way to compare the two.  What DOES mean Western culture is going down the drain?What indicators are you looking for?

[Dilmah G]

I refuse to acknowledge the existence of "Western Culture".Period.

The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group.

That group being The West or the United States in general is far too large to classify under a blanket term like that. Multiculturalism ring any bells? Gang Culture or Mexican-American Culture is getting closer.

So teens now are having more sex that previous generations? Some people may see that as a negative, not a positive.

*Hopes this doesn't somehow turn into an Abortion/Religion/Evolution thread*
As long as these teenagers are educated in safe-sex practices and put these into practice they'll be fine. It's another thing Teens can't keep bottled up.

What DOES mean Western culture is going down the drain?What indicators are you looking for?

It's looked like that since the Vietnam War when drug use and what-not became popularised through the rise of media and various other factors. You could say sub-cultural practices are becoming progressively worse (gang violence, frequent drug use, underage sex), but they've been doing that since the birth of society, there are always the people who will do something the middle class and above disapprove of. As time goes on, it becomes acceptable and something new comes along, it's a process that most likely won't end. There was prostitution, rock music, list goes on.

[iamzack]

Sorry, obvious oversight. The data I found for teenage sexuality went as far back as the 1980s, but the trend is the same. People start having sex at a younger age.

So teens now are having more sex that previous generations? Some people may see that as a negative, not a positive.

As a teenager, I see it as a DEFINITE positive. It means less sleeping with people between 5 and 10 years older than me.

[TrashMan]

As a teenager, I see it as a DEFINITE positive. It means less sleeping with people between 5 and 10 years older than me.

Yeah, and I'm sure many teenagers see getting high or totally drunk as a positive thing too.