[iamzack]

Well, yeah, why not? It's fun.

[The E]

I wasn't talking specificly about talking with foreigner, but in general. Does this topic interest you enough to talk about it with your friends? Do you even try to get informed on the subject? Did you even think much about this issue before it brought it up?

Well, yeah. But since they agree with me, we would all be wrong, wouldn't we? For reference, most of the people I'm studying with are, on average, 10 years younger than I am, and during my work at a local Games store I can witness the behaviour of teenagers quite well for myself, I believe.

I forgot to address this earlier, so I'll just plop it in here. You are answering yourself in essence. What else has an influence on kids besides parents? Their friends, their town, their culture!
So if the parents are good but the kid turns bad, then it's obvious it's enviroment (culture) has a greater negative influence than their parents positive influence. And vice-versa.

So, Children have perfectly malleable personalities that are ONLY determined by outside factors?

So what would it take for you to consider a change bad?

Unless that change involves me being on the wrong side of a singularity, that will never happen.

The problem there is that my main source, the federal statistics office, didn't collect the specific data for teenage pregnancies before 2001. (However, the absolute number of childbirths from 1990 onwards, for mothers aged 15 - 45, remained steady at ~1400 children born per 1000 Women.)

that's a long range of ages. all the way to 45?

As I said, the data seems to be limited.

Well you can't argue they aren't worse and then argue there is no way to compare the two.  What DOES mean Western culture is going down the drain?What indicators are you looking for?

I see no contradiction there. No matter what I do, there will always be a part of my brain that will compare their behaviour to what I remember mine to have been (NOT what my behaviour actually was. Memory is tricky that way.) So, I wouldn't try to judge people by an arbitrary comparison between my unreliable memory and my unreliable observations.

What does it mean? How should I know? But it seems to me as though social conservatives do try to convince me of their hypothesis that todays' culture is somehow worse than yesterdays'. Which leads me to ask how one would prove that.

[Blue Lion]

I see no contradiction there. No matter what I do, there will always be a part of my brain that will compare their behaviour to what I remember mine to have been (NOT what my behaviour actually was. Memory is tricky that way.) So, I wouldn't try to judge people by an arbitrary comparison between my unreliable memory and my unreliable observations.

What does it mean? How should I know? But it seems to me as though social conservatives do try to convince me of their hypothesis that todays' culture is somehow worse than yesterdays'. Which leads me to ask how one would prove that.

And they would be wrong. But not because kids today are awesome super great, but because they're comparing something that's not really comparable.

[TrashMan]

Well, yeah, why not? It's fun.

So is jumping off a cliff. Because I say so. Go try it. Please.

 

Well, yeah. But since they agree with me, we would all be wrong, wouldn't we? For reference, most of the people I'm studying with are, on average, 10 years younger than I am, and during my work at a local Games store I can witness the behaviour of teenagers quite well for myself, I believe.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here? Do you talk about this issue often with your aquantances or not?

So, Children have perfectly malleable personalities that are ONLY determined by outside factors?

Mostly determined by outside factors.

Unless that change involves me being on the wrong side of a singularity, that will never happen.

So you admit that nothing can possibly convince you that any change in a society or culture can be a bad one...
Cute.

I see no contradiction there. No matter what I do, there will always be a part of my brain that will compare their behaviour to what I remember mine to have been (NOT what my behaviour actually was. Memory is tricky that way.) So, I wouldn't try to judge people by an arbitrary comparison between my unreliable memory and my unreliable observations.

So everyone's memory and observations are unreliable, how do you judge ANYTHING at all?
This way of reasoning falls under the "we can't know anything, so nothing is going on in the first place" category.

[General Battuta]

Nonono, you just use non-subjective observations like well-constructed statistics.

And, in fact, Trashman, personality is about 60-70% genetic, depending on the trait (openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeability, neuroticism.) I can throw you a few papers if you like.

[Blue Lion]

It's looked like that since the Vietnam War when drug use and what-not became popularised through the rise of media and various other factors. You could say sub-cultural practices are becoming progressively worse (gang violence, frequent drug use, underage sex), but they've been doing that since the birth of society, there are always the people who will do something the middle class and above disapprove of. As time goes on, it becomes acceptable and something new comes along, it's a process that most likely won't end. There was prostitution, rock music, list goes on.

That's what I mean. How do you know if it's going to hell in a handbasket?

[The E]

Oh and I think that the strange thing is that as humanity (evolves/devolves, whatever) and we move to the future, humans are acting more primitive and less civilized with less self control and less morals with backwards selfish priorities The fact that sex rates go up is evidence of that. Decency is going away. This could hardly be called evolution. It is devolution. More animalistic.

So, by extrapolating backwards, Humanity's cultural apex was when, exactly? 10 seconds after the first being on this planet experienced self-consciousness?
Oh, and the statistics I quoted earlier seem to paint a different picture (except for the increase in sexual matters), would you care to explain how that can be?
Again, you are making the rhetorical mistake of speaking in absolutes without evidence to prove it.

[TrashMan]

Nonono, you just use non-subjective observations like well-constructed statistics.

Torture numbers, and they'll confess to anything.  ~Gregg Easterbrook

98% of all statistics are made up.  ~Author Unknown

Statistics are like bikinis.  What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.  ~Aaron Levenstein

Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket.  According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable.  ~Bobby Bragan, 1963

Statistics can be made to prove anything - even the truth.  ~Author Unknown

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.  ~Author Unknown

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts - for support rather than for illumination.  ~Andrew Lang

Statistics are like women; mirrors of purest virtue and truth, or like whores to use as one pleases.  ~Theodor Billroth

Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say.  ~William W. Watt

Then there is the man who drowned crossing a stream with an average depth of six inches.  ~W.I.E. Gates

There are two kinds of statistics, the kind you look up and the kind you make up.  ~Rex Stout, Death of a Doxy

Satan delights equally in statistics and in quoting scripture....  ~H.G. Wells, The Undying Fire

The average human has one breast and one testicle.  ~Des McHale

A statistical analysis, properly conducted, is a delicate dissection of uncertainties, a surgery of suppositions.  ~M.J. Moroney

"There are three kinds of lies:  lies, damned lies, and statistics."  ~Mark Twain

And, in fact, Trashman, personality is about 60-70% genetic, depending on the trait (openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeability, neuroticism.) I can throw you a few papers if you like.

And the moon is made of cheese.

[Scotty]

The average human has one breast and one testicle.  ~Des McHale

This one made me laugh .

[General Battuta]

Nonono, you just use non-subjective observations like well-constructed statistics.

Torture numbers, and they'll confess to anything.  ~Gregg Easterbrook

98% of all statistics are made up.  ~Author Unknown

Statistics are like bikinis.  What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.  ~Aaron Levenstein

Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket.  According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable.  ~Bobby Bragan, 1963

Statistics can be made to prove anything - even the truth.  ~Author Unknown

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.  ~Author Unknown

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts - for support rather than for illumination.  ~Andrew Lang

Statistics are like women; mirrors of purest virtue and truth, or like whores to use as one pleases.  ~Theodor Billroth

Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say.  ~William W. Watt

Then there is the man who drowned crossing a stream with an average depth of six inches.  ~W.I.E. Gates

There are two kinds of statistics, the kind you look up and the kind you make up.  ~Rex Stout, Death of a Doxy

Satan delights equally in statistics and in quoting scripture....  ~H.G. Wells, The Undying Fire

The average human has one breast and one testicle.  ~Des McHale

A statistical analysis, properly conducted, is a delicate dissection of uncertainties, a surgery of suppositions.  ~M.J. Moroney

"There are three kinds of lies:  lies, damned lies, and statistics."  ~Mark Twain

And, in fact, Trashman, personality is about 60-70% genetic, depending on the trait (openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeability, neuroticism.) I can throw you a few papers if you like.

And the moon is made of cheese.

Those quotes are all about the misuse or misinterpretation of statistics. Since you value rationality and science so thoroughly, I'm sure you'll agree that statistical descriptions of populations are a valuable tool when well-employed.

Would you like the papers, including experimental evidence, that demonstrate the heritability of personality traits? And, similarly, the experimental evidence that suggests the moon is not made of cheese?

In the meantime, here[/i].

[Scotty]

Do those percentages mean the likelihood of inheriting said characteristics?

[iamzack]

Sorry, obvious oversight. The data I found for teenage sexuality went as far back as the 1980s, but the trend is the same. People start having sex at a younger age.

So teens now are having more sex that previous generations? Some people may see that as a negative, not a positive.

As a teenager, I see it as a DEFINITE positive. It means less sleeping with people between 5 and 10 years older than me.

Disturbing and creepy as well as childish and absolutely no sexual morals whatsoever...You scare me. Only good girls can be trusted and know true love. Let's not forget your extreme increased risk of viruses and bacteria.

Excuse me, "good girls"? Are you living in the 50s or what?

(PS: there's such a thing as condoms and knowing the sexual histories of people you sleep with. Duh?)

[General Battuta]

Not quite. Everyone has the characteristics, after all.

It's a bit complicated, since they're generally drawn from studies of separated twins (comparisons between monozygotic clones and dizygotic 'siblings' are very valuable).

Rather, it's the percentage of the variation between individuals in a population which can be attributed to genetics rather than environment. Environment is a category that includes how your parents act and how they treat you.

[General Battuta]

We understand you had some bad experiences, High Max, and we accept that.

You don't need to impose your morality on others.

[iamzack]

So... because you don't agree with the way I view sex (as a purely biological act which is fun), I am...
Let's see...
"polluted with peer pressure" (because I couldn't possibly just... actually like sex, right?)
lacking in self respect and respect for others
"selfish and easy"
"superficial"
"don't know true love"
untrustworthy
lacking self control and values

So, tell me again why you're an expert on me based solely on my promiscuity?

[General Battuta]

He's afraid of female sexuality because he's insecure and thinks women will cheat on him.

He can only trust pure women to show him love.

That's the feeling I get, at least.

[iamzack]

I don't know. The "good girls" comment points to excessive conservatism.

[General Battuta]

I won't disagree with that. But he has personal motives too.

[iamzack]

Religion?

[General Battuta]

I've been totally monogamous my entire life, and I have no interest in changing that (with iamzack or anybody else.) But nonetheless, I agree with iamzack's view. If sex is fun, and you're healthy about it, there's no harm in having multiple partners. As long as you're not putting other people at risk, it's your decision, and the consequences are yours to deal with.

iamzack clearly has plenty of self-respect. You should be tolerant of her differing values. There's no need to impose your beliefs on her unless you genuinely are afraid.

You seem determined to vilify her and her sexuality as something filthy that turns her into an object. I can imagine what made you so bitter. If you want to talk about it, you can do so.

You should read more about behavior genetics before going off like that.