[Dilmah G]

Yeah. I like the concept the Shivans may have been engineered by another species to create eternal balance, or something similar to the Cylons in BSG (don't worry, I won't elaborate). Also, Bosch makes an analogy between our existence and the cities of Troy, each building upon the civilisation before it. So it's suggested that possibly we are part of some kind of universal cycle. But as Alpha 1 makes clear at the end of FS1, the presence of Shivans was necessary. Without the presence of the Shivans, the Ancients would've been annihalated in their infancy, the same goes for Humans and Vasudans. Oh and the Ancients narrator says the Ancients annihalated species after species, sometime enslaving them.

[ThesaurusRex]

In the FS games there is no evidence of any other civilizations aside from the main three. The question can be asked. What are they preserving?

There is another race called the Ancients and at the time of FS, long extinct.
The Ancients at their prime destroyed many other budding civilizations and worlds, and might have even destroyed Earth and Vasuda Prime before the Terrans and Vasudans reached space. By destroying the Ancients, the Shivans in a sense saves budding civilizations from one race that will dominate the entire galaxy.

Yeah. I like the concept the Shivans may have been engineered by another species to create eternal balance, or something similar to the Cylons in BSG (don't worry, I won't elaborate). Also, Bosch makes an analogy between our existence and the cities of Troy, each building upon the civilisation before it. So it's suggested that possibly we are part of some kind of universal cycle. But as Alpha 1 makes clear at the end of FS1, the presence of Shivans was necessary. Without the presence of the Shivans, the Ancients would've been annihalated in their infancy, the same goes for Humans and Vasudans. Oh and the Ancients narrator says the Ancients annihalated species after species, sometime enslaving them.

But doesn't it seem like that they are not really preserving these civilizations but rather delaying their destruction?

[Ghostavo]

Regarding the comparison of the Lucifer and the Sathanas fleet, I'll just quote the game box.

Although, on the outskirts of the Gamma Draconis System, your most feared nemesis has returned and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party...

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, but in the cases we know of (Ancients and the Great War), there's been something to trigger them. I think was it ST:R that said GTI provoked them at Ross 128? The Ancient monologues also state after a universe-wide path of destruction they encountered the Shivans. One hypothesis I heard a while ago here is that maybe the Shivans are attracted to violence or something? A 14-15 year war ought to result in something, and universe-wide destruction explains itself. I do see your point though, if I'm right, they're logic is flawed.

Regarding the comparison of the Lucifer and the Sathanas fleet, I'll just quote the game box.

Although, on the outskirts of the Gamma Draconis System, your most feared nemesis has returned and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party...

Jesus.... wow, I never knew about that (to be fair I never owned the box anyway).

[colecampbell666]

It was ST:R that said that. It wasn't canon to the original ST.

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, it's a hypothesis from this standpoint.

[castor]

An optimistic projection, but the writing betrays hubris:

"With the Colossus, we have nothing more to fear."

"...securing peace in our time, and for generations to come."

"...having proven once and for all our technological and tactical superiority over our Great War enemies."

Those words always sounded weirdly out of place to me. Like propaganda, but who's the target?
I think just overdid the hype a bit.

[Lucika]

Well, my comment is a bit different in nature but I don't want to create a new topic for that:
My problem is the sheer existence of the Colossus.
Why? Why did the GTVA waste such an amount of resources on a ship like that (apart of storytelling purposes) if we consider that a bunch of bombers were capable of destroying that goddamn Lucy?
Imagine:
scenario A: Lucy 2 arrives, bombers sent, destroy it in the first jump. One node off the list, might be one obliterated planet.
scenario B: Lucy 2 arrives, the Colly finally finds it after a while and destroys it with a terrible cost to its hull. At least one obliterated planet and a waste of 20 years work (or at least a goddamn lot of funds) as a result.
If I would've been the GTVA, I would've spent all that money and resources on trying to develop something like the Knossos. I guess that 20 years of work would've been enough ^^

Note that I am not against the fleet modernization at all. I just don't like the idea of all that wasted resources on the Colly. If I were Shivan, I would've definitely chosen 80000 Demons over 80 Sathanii.

(Note that SD Demon + SD Demon = SSD Orb)

[Droid803]

Well, 80 Sathanases can cause a supernova. I don't think 80000 Demons can do that.

As for the Colossus, they don't want to lose another jump node - ships can be rebuilt, as far as the GTVA know, jump nodes can't.

I wouldn't risk cutting off everything beyond Laramis. I'd much rather sacrifice a ship that took 20 years to build. And why would using the Colossus ensure one obliterated planet? It takes 13 hours to bombard a planet. I'm pretty sure the Colossus can kill a Lucifer much more quickly than that. It can probably intercept the Lucifer so it can't bombard the planet anyway. There is no reason why it would take that long for the Colossus to respond. I'm pretty sure that it can cross GTVA space in a few hours (15 minutes per jump, probably less judging from how fast the NTC Napoleon leaves the Regulus node in Rebel Intercept (INSTAJUMP)). Your scenarios are inherently flawed - it should be (assuming success):

1. Bombers attack the Lucifer in a Node.
Best case scenario: One unimportant node gone, no way to replace.
Worst case scenario: One critical node gone, large part of GTVA space cut off permanently. GONE. FOREVER. Say goodbye to 2 billion citizens, four star systems, 6 installations, 4 full fleets, 2 shipyards, everything. Gone. Forever.

2. Colossus.
Best case scenario: Minimal damage to Colossus.
Worst case scenario: Heavy damage to Colossus. (Major repairs or scrap). Even if the Colly bites the dust, it's just going to be at most 20 years for another one. By that time you'd probably have better technology and can make better ones, and build them faster.

[The E]

I guess the Colossus was the GTVA's equivalent of the Apollo Program. A massive, state-funded effort into R&D, industrial development and sheer propaganda value. Getting a warship out of the deal is just an added bonus.

[karajorma]

More like the Manhattan Project. Yes there are other ways to achieve the same objective but as Droid803 pointed out the cost of trying them could easily be worse. Better to have the Colossus and find you don't need it than to not have it and really wish you did.

[Aardwolf]

But the Lucifer had them. It was the only ship though and a FS1 campaign called Black Horizons put a couple of those same beams on a Fenris.

The FS1 Lucifer had the Shivan Super Laser (SSL). For some reason FS2 replaced those with beams, and FSPort replaced those with a beam that looked like the SSL.

Edit: oops, I thought that was the last page

[ThesaurusRex]

The idea of putting a substantial amount of the GTVA's resources into the Colossus just doesn't make sense. Just the size alone gives it the disadvantage of being an easier target to hit. It would be less maneuverable in combat and easier to disable make it more susceptible to bomber attacks. The loss of a ship of that size would deal a more damaging blow then losing multiple smaller destroyers. Especially since it would take 20 years just to construct a replacement. Another issue with the Colossus is its firepower. When attacking an individual ship it could deliver, at most, the firepower equal to that of 2.5 Orions if they could position the ship in the right location. For those of you wondering, the number 2.5 is not a mistake since only the guns on one side of the ship can attack an individual ship. If the target is directly in front of the ship or at one of its many blind spots, then it can only deliver the firepower of possibly one or two Orions. Compare this with 5 individual Orions that can swarm an enemy ship and engage it with a half their guns every time guaranteeing the full 2.5. In addition, the Colossus also suffers from the fact that it cannot deploy fighters to protect its entire surface area as quickly as a destroyer could.

[Droid803]

Well, the Colossus does have pretty decent anti-fighter coverage though.
Plus, it's turrets are a lot better armored than the turrets of five Orions combined, and it has twice as much health as five Orions.

Case an point : The Sathanas could (over)kill 2 out of five Orions in its opening volley, taking out 40% of your firepower right there. That same volley would lower the Colossus's HP 32%, while pretty much not harming the Colly's firepower output much at all.

Even if an Orion gets behind the Sathanas, note that the Sathanas can moon an Orion to death pretty quickly.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, exactly: those five Orions are going to attrit pretty fast.

[ThesaurusRex]

But remember, the Sathanas could only use its 4 "very big red beams" on targets near the front. Certain parts of the Sathanas were still open to attack, and the 4 main beams could have been taken out quite rapidly either by very well placed beams or bombers on board the Orions. But the problem still remains with the resource amounts. The resources in one Colossus could have built a lot more than just 5 Orions. This was probably why, in the campaign, Command used destroyers as fodder, as much as they did, when assaulting the sathanas.

[General Battuta]

You have what-if syndrome.

The Sathanas can turn. It can jump. Those 4 main beams are not easily disabled without Helii, especially given the Sath's fighter cover.

The Colossus is not designed to fight Sathani. It is designed to successfully engage and destroy a Lucifer (or so we like to think.) The Orion is not good at this, five Orions would probably not be better at it, and in any case, when are you ever going to put five Orions in the same place?

These debates seem to come up every year and they're always inconclusive.

[ThesaurusRex]

The Colossus is not designed to fight Sathani. It is designed to successfully engage and destroy a Lucifer (or so we like to think.) The Orion is not good at this, five Orions would probably not be better at it, and in any case, when are you ever going to put five Orions in the same place?

Lol. Three words and three letters. Battle of Endor FTW!

[Droid803]

I don't really see the GTVA using destroyers as cannon fodder. It's more like the NTF do that (look at Rebel Intercept).
GTVA Command never actually deployed a destroyer against the Sathanas. The Psamtik got taken out by a Sathanas they didn't know existed.

The Colossus's selling point was not only that it had enough firepower to destroy a Lucifer, but to be able to withstand multiple hits from a Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers. Orions get smashed pretty quickly when put in the way of SSLs. (You don't really want to lose 1 or 2 Orions out of 6 when assaulting something. Preferably you want to send something that can take the damage and live to tell the tale).

Bottom line is, I think that the Colossus wasn't a complete waste of resources and time given what the GTVA knew at the time. It proved its worth pretty well smashing the NTF, and even holding up against something it was never designed to combat. Sure, if they knew what was coming, they could have probably come up with something better. But they didn't - noone can see the future, so to me, it makes sense. They wanted some sort of insurance in case another Lucifer showed up. Something they could rely on.

[Mongoose]

GTVA Command never actually deployed a destroyer against the Sathanas.

*cough* Phonecia *cough*

I completely agree with you, though.  We've all seen how quickly the Galatea's hull integrity fell from 100% to zilch when staring down the Lucifer.  Going by the statistics listed in the wiki, without the "shields" (read: invulnerability), the Lucifer has eight times the hull integrity of a single Orion.  Even with four or five Orions attacking at once, the Lucifer would still most likely come out on top.  In contrast, pitting the Colossus against the Lucifer results in a relatively easy victory for the former in almost every scenario.  The GTVA wanted a guaranteed Lucifer-killer, something that wouldn't put any of their forces at risk, and the Colossus gave them just that.