Author Topic: The universe and its expanse?  (Read 6392 times)

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Offline ShadowGorrath

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The universe and its expanse?
Hi,

I need some info on this topic for school and all, so can anyone give me any cool pictures and info, maybe videos too, about this?

 
Re: The universe and its expanse?
Astronomy picture of the day

Look in the archive, there's hundreds of pics in there. More than you'll ever be able to look at :P

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
yeah, uh.. it's really, really big... yeah...
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Offline Col. Fishguts

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
You think a walk down to the pharmacy is a long distance, but that's peanuts to infinity.
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Offline Enigmatic Entity

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
If you don't want to go into all the "what is on the other side of the end of the universe?" argument, then the universe's size is infinity, basically that means it is unknown. People have tried to calculate the size of "our" universe using billion year old light, but then "what is over the other side?" comes into it.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
And then there's the question, 'does the Universe end at the outermost point of expansion from the Big Bang?'

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
Current evidence suggests the universe is infinite and flat, which means if you keep traveling in a straight line, you'll never come back to your starting point. There is no 'edge', there is no 'farthest distance from the Big Bang' - because, remember, ALL POINTS IN THE UNIVERSE emerged from the Big Bang, so everything is equally distant from the 'center', because the center is everywhere.

At least, that's how it worked last time I checked.

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
You think a walk down to the pharmacy is a long distance, but that's peanuts to infinity.

Couldn't resist adding the full and attributed quote:

Quote
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
    Douglas Adams

 

Offline castor

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
People have tried to calculate the size of "our" universe using billion year old light, but then "what is over the other side?" comes into it.
Heh, this topic is always so much fun. My current view is that the (other side) question is invalid. Because "sides" and "edges" are just simplifications minds create to cope with the non-homogenous make-up of the universe. Its kind of cool: as tough as it is to think in terms of infinity, its even tougher to try and think in any other terms :D

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
The best thing you can do is to forget the association to "expansion" in the terms we three-dimensional time travellers tend to think of it.

It's not as much expansion as it is emergence of space between stuff.

Current evidence suggests the universe is infinite and flat, which means if you keep traveling in a straight line, you'll never come back to your starting point. There is no 'edge', there is no 'farthest distance from the Big Bang' - because, remember, ALL POINTS IN THE UNIVERSE emerged from the Big Bang, so everything is equally distant from the 'center', because the center is everywhere.

At least, that's how it worked last time I checked.


Yeah, latest observations do seem to suggest that the space is flat, but we would do well to remember that we can't observe the whole universe, and cosmology is one of those branches of science where surprises still sometimes occur, so I wouldn't put it out of the group of viable options for universe to be finite but borderless (a contained geometry like the surface of sphere, torus or even möbius strip).

The problem I have with infinite and flat universe is that it doesn't agree with the principle of universe being homogenous and isotropic, simply because there is a finite amount of matter and energy*, which in infinite space could not maintain a static average density of stuff and the universe would not be homogenous any more. It would mean that at some point you start running out of stuff and that would also imply a direction to the center point, which should be detectable as stuff moving away from a certain point rather than away from everything.

A finite, contained geometry feels a lot more intuitive to me. Of course my intuition has been wrong previously. However, when considering the most recent results in cosmology, I would suggest taking them with a grain or few of salt. We don't even really know how gravity works yet, and it's pretty important in cosmology to know that... amongst other things.

Most recent scientific results are all good and well but it's also good to keep the context in mind; gravity is the least known basic interaction of nature, and it is the strongest power in the universe in cosmological scale of things. I don't think we're well equipped enough on theoretical basis to have any finality in our knowledge of the cosmology quite yet. Particle physics, maybe, but macroscopic developement of the universe... we can make more or less educated guesses but their accuracy depends on the accuracy of models used in the interpretation of observations.

We know that the general relativity model of gravity fails at minuscule distances. Who says it can't give inaccurate results at very long distances either? The assumptions of dark matter for example rely entirely on general relativity model of gravity being accurate in galactic scale. But instead of looking at an observation that seems to contradict with the theory, cosmologists have assumed the theory to be correct and add hidden variables (dark matter and dark energy, namely) to explain the observation.

For all we know, gravity could work a bit differently in galactic or intergalactic scales than it does in solar scale. After all... doing exact measurements is sort of difficult, isn't it?


For the record - I know dark matter seems to be viable explanations to the behaviour of rotating galaxies**, but I'm just saying that from entirely empiric point of view, the introduction of dark matter (without further supporting observations) seems not unlike putting a "here there be dragons" text on unknown regions of map, or saying that the dragons make things happen this way...


*Of course you can consider that universe actually has infinite amount of energy but then you're getting into a thermodynamic can of worms that will likely eat you alive... How's about infinite entropy? :shaking:

**For the uneducated - observations of spiral galaxies have been somewhat puzzling because they seem to be rotating too fast for their apparent size, especially on the outskirts of the disk. Basically, if our best available model of gravity is correct, the outermost stars should be slinging into the void at the speed they are going - but they aren't.

So there is two options; either the model of gravity is somewhat wrong, or there's more mass around galaxies than meets the eye (literally). Purely assuming that there's some dark matter that you can't observe is a bit shoddy from scientific perspective; luckily, there have been some indirect observations of dark matter since, so it does seem like a viable explanation, but nevertheless it is a good example of what could possibly go wrong when the accuracy of theory is valued higher than observations to contrary.

Dark energy, on the other hand, feels somewhat dodgy in my opinion. :nervous:
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
I think you make a good point about dark matter, and particularly dark energy, recent potential observations nonwithstanding.  It's one thing to take a very good, tested theory and try to come up with workarounds for a few observations that seem contrary to it, but when these workarounds literally involve declaring that a full 95% or so of the universe is beyond our current ability to observe...any good scientist should at least take a massive pause and look at what the implications of that are.  Part of me wonders if, somewhere down the line, we'll look back on dark energy in the same way that we look back on the "luminiferous aether" today.

 
Re: The universe and its expanse?
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is an excellent primary source.  :nod:
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Offline Flipside

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
Sometimes I wonder if, rather than reducing the number of dimensions the Universe is expanding through, it might be better to consider expanding the number of dimensions. I've heard theories that the Earth is simply a 3-dimensional representation of a higher-dimension object, this is complete technobabble here, but is it possible all the alleged 'missing mass' could simply exist in places that it cannot be percieved?

 
Re: The universe and its expanse?
Sometimes I wonder if, rather than reducing the number of dimensions the Universe is expanding through, it might be better to consider expanding the number of dimensions. I've heard theories that the Earth is simply a 3-dimensional representation of a higher-dimension object, this is complete technobabble here, but is it possible all the alleged 'missing mass' could simply exist in places that it cannot be percieved?

I think you've hit the problem pretty accurately. I wouldn't be surprized if the string theory's dozen+ dimmensions was still short of reality.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
While it's not against forum rules to post threads like this, and everyone here is nice enough to help; try doing your own research some time. You'll learn more and it's less similar to getting everyone here to be your lackey :p

 

Offline ThesaurusRex

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
Anyone given some thought to Homer Simpson's theory of a doughnut shaped universe?
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Offline Flipside

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
Mmmmmm.... Doughnuts.....

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: The universe and its expanse?
While it's not against forum rules to post threads like this, and everyone here is nice enough to help; try doing your own research some time. You'll learn more and it's less similar to getting everyone here to be your lackey :p
I almost flipped out over this post, then remembered that this basically started as SG asking us to do his homework for him. In which case, I agree with you. :p
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