Author Topic: The newer Veteran Comments policy  (Read 20531 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TopAce

  • Stalwart contributor
  • 212
  • FREDder, FSWiki editor, and tester
The newer Veteran Comments policy
I made some updates/expansion to our Veteran Comments policy page. I'd like to hear your opinions about what other things could/should be added to make it clearer and more useful to new contributors.
My community contributions - Get my campaigns from here.

I already announced my retirement twice, yet here I am. If I bring up that topic again, don't believe a word.

 

Offline SypheDMar

  • 210
  • Student, Volunteer, Savior
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
I like it. I see many entries regarding ships that are
Quote
Highly subjective and debatable statements like extremely weak or totally useless.
and
Quote
Vulgarities like a piece of crap.

 

Offline asyikarea51

  • 210
  • -__-||
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
/stumble

I'm not so sure about "Blog-like descriptions that point out strengths/weaknesses under rare circumstances."

but if the short version (since blog-like is too long I assume) of the above is the same as some of the later bulleted points under "All articles/Capship articles" then I have nothing to argue about.

Just random $0.02... probably just the way I read the text. :nervous:

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Quote
Discussing about a ship's default loadout that doesn't make an in-mission appearance (The Lucifer in FreeSpace 2)

This is not wise, I think. Veteran comments are allowed to include other information useful to FREDders.

Quote
Useless and trivial information.

Is too easily defined broadly to contravene the last rule of of acceptable information, as well.



At this point I think expansion of the rules is not useful, unless such expansion is specifically a forbidding of redundant commentary. Most of these things need only be said once.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
There shouldn't be any redundant comments either. I was editing the VCs on the GTF Erinyes' article and counted about three instances of people talking about using the Prometheus S or Subach HL-7.
My blog

Quote: Tuesday, 3 October 2023 0133 UTC +8, #general
MP-Ryan
Oh you still believe in fairy tales like Santa, the Easter Bunny, and free market competition principles?

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
I agree with NGTM-1R's vision of the VCs (they should include info FREDders may need to know). The problem here is that many FRED tips could be misenterpreted as useless assumptions.

I also wholeheartedly agree on the objection to the use of vulgarities. I totally dislike barbarian words.

Anyway, you all need to take into account that table entries are not as canon as tech descriptions and certain cutscenes, not to mention weapon alterations made with FRED. The following statements, IMO, should not be removed from the Wiki:

- The GVC Mentu's tech description clearly says that the cruiser has beam cannons at its disposal, but none can be seen in the table entry. The tech description even says that the Mentu was designed for the specific purpose of using beam cannons. This apparent contradiction may be given by the fact that a Mentu cruiser armed with beams, the Yaaru, may have caused balance issues in the mission "Rebels & Renegades". It may be a good idea to change the armament of 2 turrets out of the 4 that (turrets 06 through 09) seem capable of firing beams with SVas Vasudan beams;

- The Iceni has 3 BGreen beams at its disposal, which is the way too much for a ship of that size. It's worth noting that one of the turrets equipped with those beams, turret 08 (port flank), seems too small to fire a beam of that magnitude. turret 16 (starboard flank), which is located in the opposite side, is equipped with Piranha warheads. This oddity may be explained by analizing the mission Rebels & Renegades, during which the Iceni uses its extra power to handle a Mentu-class cruiser, the Yaaru, and a Sobek-class corvette, the Asar. In the mission "Endgame", the Iceni is equipped with SGreen beams, not BGreens, so the damage inflicted to the Colossus is very limited.

- The Shivans are known to have weak primary weapons and the same secondary weapons as the Terrans or Vasudans. Weak primary weapons affect the performance of virtually every single spacecraft in the Shivan arsenal, so it has been assumed that the Shivans use weak primaries for balance issues. Their usage of Terran/Vasudan secondary weapons is far less acceptable;

- The GTD Orion-class destroyer is known to have considerable firepower if compared to the destroyer class that, at the time of FreeSpace 2, is supposed to replace it. According to the table entry, in fact, the Orion has 3 BGreen beams while the Hecate has only one of them. It's woth noting, however, that one of the Orion's beams is mounted on a three-barreled turret which theoretically shouldn't be capable of firing a beam - especially a beam of that magnitude. Additionally, by looking at the Hecate, it can be easily noticed that its beam weapon turrets are very, very big - far bigger, in fact, than those of the Orion. Although it's not plausible to assume that the Hecate should be armed with 5 or so BGreen beams, it may be appropriate to assume that at the beam turret mounted on the rear should have been armed with a BGreen. Again, table oddities can be justified by balance issues - had the Aquitaine had more powerful beams, its encounters with the Moloch-class corvettes Tiamat and Abaddon would have been more favorable to the GTVA without any particular effort by the player and his wings.

Those comments may sound like useless assumptions, but I have the right to voice my opinion and post this. I based that (incomplete, because it serves as example) list on my gaming/FREDding experience.

More in general, table entries should not be considered the most accurate source of canon info, or things wouldn't make sense (GVC Mentu). The game is not the universe, and taking this into account may help. I have personally never played a game in which the differences between the game itself and the universe it was intended to represent/show are nonexistent. In the SW and BSG universes, for example, 1-2 rounds of a primary weapon are enough to take an enemy fighter down. The same principle is not applied to the games based on those sci-fi universes for obvious balance reasons.

FreeSpace paid the price of those differences with modified table entries (balance is extremely important) while other games paid the prince in their own different ways.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
More in general, table entries should not be considered the most accurate source of canon info, or things wouldn't make sense (GVC Mentu). The game is not the universe, and taking this into account may help. I have personally never played a game in which the differences between the game itself and the universe it was intended to represent/show are nonexistent. In the SW and BSG universes, for example, 1-2 rounds of a primary weapon are enough to take an enemy fighter down. The same principle is not applied to the games based on those sci-fi universes for obvious balance reasons.
You're defeating your own argument right here.  Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica were well-established universes before anyone thought about making games based on them, and because said universes weren't explicitly designed for the purposes of balanced gameplay, the games based on them had to make necessary tweaks in order to play well.  In contrast, the FreeSpace universe was designed for the sole purpose of the games that comprise it, and the combat mechanics inherent to that universe were designed for the primary purpose of playing well.  In short, despite what you say, the game is the universe.  We all know that, from a real-world standpoint, the reason that certain ships have different armaments from mission to mission or have weapons set to turrets that don't make much sense visually is for game-balancing purposes, but within the confines of the game, what we see is what we have to work with.  Discrepancies between table loadouts and in-mission armaments might be interesting footnotes in individual mission articles, but the whole "universe vs. game" nonsense belongs squarely away from the VCs.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
The game is not the universe, and the principle applies to all universes with games based on them. Even if you don't consider sci-fi shows, you have certain differences between the universe those games are based on and the games themselves. Those differences are notable when watching cutscenes and/or reading references to the universe (descriptions and stuff like that) - you'd never, ever notice them if you base your analysis on the game, only.

In many games, for example, there are cutscenes in which spacecraft are fragile and have no shields (Star Trek: Invasion, Starfighter 3000, Colony Wars 1, 2, 3, StarLancer, several Star Wars games, etc. etc.) only to see shields during the game. I've also seen altered speeds and weapons, but that's another matter.

The GVC Mentu's description and the Orion's BGreen fired from a three barreled turret are enough to justify that. I don't see why this kind of info should be banned from the VCs even if it's pretty clear that the game and the universe are two separate things. If there really has to be a hierachy in canon, let the tech descriptions have the importance they deserve.

EDIT: Writing all notable differences (or apparent inconsistencies) in a single article may be a good idea, no doubt about that. It would let the VCs focus on game/FRED, and this choice may have its advantages...

It's denying that those differences exist to be a serious problem, IMO. No offense to anyone, but talking about how the game should take precedence over the universe is, giving the number of proofs, a sign of poor gaming experience (not in FS2, but in general).
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 04:37:15 pm by Mobius »
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Mongoose is correct. The game is our number one source for information on the way the Freespace universe works.

Mobius, you do not dictate canon, you have no special position of authority in experience in the Freespace community, and while you often contribute productively, your rants on this topic totally overstep the bounds.

While there are plenty of irregularities, inconsistencies, and odd things in the game (Shivans using T/V secondaries is a great example), we are not at liberty to speculate about how they should be. Please don't attempt to do so.

Furthermore, keep in mind that you are not a Wiki administrator. Do not attempt to dictate canon or policy.

Thank you.

 

Offline Col. Fishguts

  • voodoo doll
  • 211
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
The game is not the universe, and the principle applies to all universes with games based on them.

That is very much your opinion.
For all wiki-purposes, the game dictates what canon is, and not what you think should be canon.
"I don't think that people accept the fact that life doesn't make sense. I think it makes people terribly uncomfortable. It seems like religion and myth were invented against that, trying to make sense out of it." - D. Lynch

Visit The Babylon Project, now also with HTL flavour  ¦ GTB Rhea

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Sorry, but I can provide canon proof. Namely, the tech descriptions.

Wheter or not the tech descriptions should "overwrite" the table entries is an opinion and is therefore open to debate, so I do apologize for the related accidents. The presence of certain canon sources that contradict the table entries, however, is not open to debate - it's a fact. The Wiki has good coverage when it comes to jump node maps inconsistencies, but the coverage on table entries is all but nonexistent. Yet still, no one can claim that those inconsistencies don't exist and/or aren't notable enough.

And finally, please note that the tech descriptions come from the game. They're as canon as the table entries, and surely a hell lot more valuable than my (and your) opinions.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
:rolleyes:

This is why you are unpopular.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Please wait until the end of the month... ;)
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Let us apply some rationality to the situation then.

FreeSpace exists, first, foremost, and only, as a game. From this we can naturally infer that gameplay is the core of its existence, and must therefore take the highest precedence in its design and creation.

And canoncity.

The table entries are directly bearing upon the gameplay; in contrast, the tech descriptions do not even have to be read. (Something which I tend to enjoy crucifying campaign makers for when they forget to update their descriptions.)

This is not opinion; this is perfectly logical deduction and fact. We players are not in the business of encouraging Gameplay And Story Segregation, and we rather tend to dislike it. It is of course true that discrepencies exist, but unfortunately for you, they have in fact been commented on already. That's what Veteran Comments are for, and what they have accomplished.

You grasp at straws that do not exist. Stop while you are behind.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Please wait until the end of the month... ;)
Yeah and I'm guessing that'll be INFASA's big release huh

  

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
I partially agree with NGTM-1R - although the differences do exist (the importance given by players is purely subjective) they shouldn't be in the Veteran Comments.

Yeah and I'm guessing that'll be INFASA's big release huh

I was refering to the Wiki's coverage on inconsistencies, not to my levels of popularity.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Oh ****. Wiki rape coming up huh.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Mobius, if you want to make a new article on techroom-table inconsistences, that's a great idea, but other than that you're outvoted on this issue.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
Yeah, that's what I'm planning to do. And it'll also have a big "non canon" template (or something similar to it) to prevent further confusion. :nod:
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Narwhal

  • Campaign List Crusader
  • 27
Re: The newer Veteran Comments policy
I would vote for Mobius on this one, though. For me, tech description > table entries. The table for me is nothing more than a list of "placeholders". I believe that the universe is different from what the game shows us, and that the game "simplifies" the universe so it is playable (and easier to create for the developers). Hence, the Shivans using Terran weapons.

Table entries comes last for me in order of canon, even after cutscenes. Yes, this is subjective.



I don't want to bring forward any new argument in favor of Mobius, I just want to say there are other people thinking like he does.