[IronForge]

One question... it hasn't really been made clear if there will be any surface fighting (my guess is not yet with this release) but in future will we be able to nukedacrapoutta a city? OR blow up lots of civvy ships in my cylon fighter?
Remember somewhere near the beginning of the show 99.99999% of the survivors got toasted cos their ship didn't have ftldrives? Which doesn't make sense, I only saw less than a dozen raiders, why can't they scramble fighters and flakscreen to keel them and the incoming missiles? However, would have been pretty pointless since they will die sooner or later... but maybe they could move most of the people over to other ships or fit FTL drives on some of em...

[General Battuta]

There were no military ships with that group of civilians that got butchered. It was only Colonial One.

Galactica was off at Ragnar and hadn't yet met the RTF yet.

[Exeter]

If I recall, that was before the civilians joined up with Galactica.  I don't think there were any combat-capable vessels in their little flotilla.  If those ships didn't even have FTL drives, you can bet they didn't have the means to defend themselves.  The only reason Colonial One wasn't vaporized was because of Apollo's EMP trick.  Somebody actually wanted to move as many people as possible over to ships that could make the jump, but there wasn't enough time.  Had they stayed, they'd have bit the dust too.

EDIT: Looks like Battuta said everything I did, only quicker and more to the point .

[Thaeris]

Atmospheric missions were something that was even discussed while I still was very interested in BtRL. For this BSG iteration, I doubt we will have atmospheric missions for R1. However, it technically COULD happen for later releases.

Check out some of Nuke's handiwork: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMmhsxv69uI

As we're getting cockpit models, I'd love to see working "analogue" guages in them. Of course, FS2 was never meant to act as a serious atmospheric flight sim; if you want to do that, make a Viper in X-Plane (making it "realistic" is the hard part  !). Still, I would love to see the FS2 open engine pull it off - and I would certainly be happy with even simplistic flight physics (which couldn't be worse than some of the DOS games you pull off of Abandonia.com...). However, only the devs can make that call.

-Thaeris

[Enker]

As we're getting cockpit models, I'd love to see working "analogue" guages in them. Of course, FS2 was never meant to act as a serious atmospheric flight sim; if you want to do that, make a Viper in X-Plane (making it "realistic" is the hard part  !).

My guess would be that flying a Viper in X-Plane would use RCS jets like what is used on the Space Shuttle. You could import the settings from the shuttle, although you would have to specify where exactly to place the jets, as well as the power settings...

Great, now I want to figure this out and make one! Thanks a lot!

[StarSlayer]

I believe they were probably culled during the post exodus purges but BTRL had some rather massive physics/aeronautics debates on the atmospheric capability of Vipers.  If I recall the general consensus was that they would have had surprising good atmospheric capability, much better then what i would have assumed.

[Thaeris]

There's already a Viper Mk II (and the original as well) on X-Plane.org available for download. I'm not sure how good/realistic they are (invisible parts mean that you can cheat the physics of the "see-what-you-fly" dynamic). Don't try the Mk II by active for v8: it won't fly without some serious tweaking. I sent a modified Mk I to the author ("active") which flies, but not great. It's more realistic than the default, but still uses displacement rather than aerodynamic lift in the atmosphere for much of anything. I haven't tried v9 vipers yet...

However, here's the v9 Vipers:

Mk I: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=7304

Mk II: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=7309

I forgot to mention-he did a Raider as well: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=7303
Note that the models used often are simply derived from Plane-Maker, which if not modified in a separate CAD program tend to not look so great. Also note that if you want to download these, you'll need an account with X-Plane.org; you'll also need X-Plane v9 to fly them.

-Thaeris

[Enker]

There's already a Viper Mk II (and the original as well) on X-Plane.org available for download. I'm not sure how good/realistic they are (invisible parts mean that you can cheat the physics of the "see-what-you-fly" dynamic). Don't try the Mk II by active for v8: it won't fly without some serious tweaking. I sent a modified Mk I to the author ("active") which flies, but not great. It's more realistic than the default, but still uses displacement rather than aerodynamic lift in the atmosphere for much of anything. I haven't tried v9 vipers yet...

However, here's the v9 Vipers:

Mk I: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=7304

Mk II: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=7309

I forgot to mention-he did a Raider as well: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=7303
Note that the models used often are simply derived from Plane-Maker, which if not modified in a separate CAD program tend to not look so great. Also note that if you want to download these, you'll need an account with X-Plane.org; you'll also need X-Plane v9 to fly them.

-Thaeris

Mk. I meaning from the 1978 series, rather than from the reimagined?

[YIIMM]

There's already a Viper Mk II (and the original as well) on X-Plane.org available for download...

I haven't flown in X-Plane for years, but it's probably the closest thing you can get to a flight modeler without paying through the nose.

You'd probably know better than I would, but I've always assumed the MkII would be quite poor in atmosphere based on the wings being so short and their leading edges being pretty much flat.

[Thaeris]

I don't believe any Viper is truly ideal in the atmosphere. The intake-like sensor array at the front is really just aesthetics-the real life repercussions of that assembly would be horrendous levels of kinetic heating from high-speed flight in the atmosphere. Drag makes heat! (which eventually damages/destroys structures...) The open thrust-reverser housings are actually quite novel in concept as far as space flight goes (and they look cool), but would not do well for the drag levels, either. Eventually, a boundry layer would form and possibly reduce the affects of drag "at speed." However, even a boundry layer has forces act against it. Thus, the situation aft of  the cockpit is not great either.

On the bright side, the Viper is so rakish that it possesses a minimalist shock cone profile: about 18 degrees. This is pretty much the same as the SR-71, which can pull off Mach 3.5 at extreme altitudes. Now, at THOSE speeds, tiny little wings are great. The only problem is that the design is a paradox: It has a general profile which suggests tremendous speeds while having a potentially lethal drag problem which would cause huge amounts of kinetic heating. The obvious realization is that the Viper is made of unobtanium or the other super-elements. This is possibly good for a space ship, as its skin is so tough that it can resist terrible amounts of space-born radiation with minimal consequences (kind of like a lead wall...).

As for low speed flight, this would have to be achieved via having a very light airframe while flying at an extreme angle of attack (thus allowing those tiny wings to do their job; at least the Mk II has atmospheric control surfaces- the original didn't). OR you rely on thrusters. You'll note that the ones on the bottom are bigger than the ones on the top. However, as this method is not seen in series (Or at least I've never seen it. Then again, I've not seen BSG in full.), it might imply some sort of "anti-grav." Which would allow such unwieldy craft as Colonial One to fly in the atmosphere; it would also explain not having to "float" through the ship to get somewhere (though that's mostly due to the "filmed in the Hollywood basement" complex). It would also account for the "semi-newtonian" physics often seen in the show. That CERTAINLY would allow a Viper to make tighter turns in space if it's using gravometric thrusting as well as conventional engines/thrusters. Heck, Basestars use a gravometric drive to propel themselves through space, so it fits with the BSG universe (anti-grav on Vipers, that is).

@Enker: Mk I indeed refers to the TOS Viper. This may be incorrect notation, but I've seen it so many times that I consider it correct.

-Thaeris

[IronForge]

OK back on topic  

Heh yeah sorry watched that some time ago. However, according to kara (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,63592.60.html) nothing to conduct the blast wave. Civvy ships have virtually no armor, and toasting them in one hit is ok... but how did them ALL get slaughtered?

Couldn't the C-1 and other capable ships blast the missiles with their defensive flak? Or... they have none?

[Angelus]

OK back on topic  

Heh yeah sorry watched that some time ago. However, according to kara (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,63592.60.html) nothing to conduct the blast wave. Civvy ships have virtually no armor, and toasting them in one hit is ok... but how did them ALL get slaughtered?

Couldn't the C-1 and other capable ships blast the missiles with their defensive flak? Or... they have none?

Civilian ships are usually not armed at all, although we learned in season two, that some ships ( the Adriatic for instance ) have ship to ship missiles ( hm, to protect itself from Pirates probably ).
But none of them has Flak cannons to protect itself, most of the ships aren't even big enough to carry one of them, just compare the size of Colonial One to Galacticas Flak cannon.

You mean the Civvie slaughter from the mini? They have been blown by direct missile hits, not shockwaves from the explosion of other ships.
The Raiders that jumped in, launched all their Missiles at the fleet - end of game.

The explosion of Cloud Nine in the orbit of New Caprica destroyed a couple of other, smaller ships which were nearby, not only because of the shockwave ( it looks like only one of the ships was destroyed from the shockwave ), more due to the large debries flying around.
Since Civvie ships have little to no armour, even a small piece of junk can to terrible harm to a ship, not to mention debries of the size of a house.
Also we saw in the episode "33", that it took only a couple of shots from two Vipers to destroy the Olympic Carrier.

[karajorma]

Ironforge, you've failed to understand the difference between an explosion (a rapidly expanding cloud of gas) and a shockwave (a pressure pulse transmitted through a medium at supersonic speeds).

You can have an explosion blow up multiple ships. You can't have a shockwave blow the up cause there is no air between the ships to transmit the shockwave.

[IronForge]

Ah allright, thanks for setting me straight.

However, probably irrelevant but in FS1 and 2 a good shockwave pwned my fighter many many times.

But wouldn't nebulae dust or whatever conduct the shockwave?

[Angelus]

Ah allright, thanks for setting me straight.

However, probably irrelevant but in FS1 and 2 a good shockwave pwned my fighter many many times.

But wouldn't nebulae dust or whatever conduct the shockwave?

FS1 and 2 are Space-action-shooters ( kinda Painkiller and Serious Sam only in Space and with a good story line ), not full fledged Space Sims, the shockwaves are here to give the player eyecandy, to add a bit to the game play, and because they are cool.

[karajorma]

But wouldn't nebulae dust or whatever conduct the shockwave?

In FS2 perhaps since they have have completely unrealistic thick nebulae.

In RL a nebula is still a better vacuum than the best one humans can make on Earth.

[Thaeris]

OK back on topic  

Heh yeah sorry watched that some time ago. However, according to kara (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,63592.60.html) nothing to conduct the blast wave. Civvy ships have virtually no armor, and toasting them in one hit is ok... but how did them ALL get slaughtered?

Couldn't the C-1 and other capable ships blast the missiles with their defensive flak? Or... they have none?

Back on topic? WHAT?! The function of the tread YOU started was to discuss atmospheric combat. Now, I do confirm my brief analysis of the aerodynamics of the Viper Mk II might have been on a slightly different tangent than the base purpose of this thread: "will there be atmospheric combat?" However, in that sense, it is an entirely viable discussion. YOU have no reason or right to shoot down/belittle such discussions on a thread given the condition that they actually are RELEVANT TO THE THREAD!

I acknowledge my impoliteness. Perhaps you should consider being more considerate in your responses.

-Thaeris

[FraktuRe]

I miss Enki and his absolutely soul crushing scientific facts that put these thread in their place.

[IronForge]

rofl sorry...

anywayz, can them cylons have enough missiles to toast an entire civilian ship?

Also, fact or fiction: large ships with jump drives can tow smaller ships through the jump portal?

[Angelus]

rofl sorry...

anywayz, can them cylons have enough missiles to toast an entire civilian ship?

Also, fact or fiction: large ships with jump drives can tow smaller ships through the jump portal?

Judging from the mini and later episodes, yes.
In the mini, 2 Raiders destroyed ~16-20 Vipers with missiles, so the Raider can carry either 8-10 missiles or 6 nukes. In most cases one or two missiles are enough to take out a Civvie ship, although there are exceptions.
It seems, the rule of thumb is, the bigger the ship, the more missiles are needed.


I think it's not possible to tow a ship during jump, it has to be docked with the jumping ship, like the Vipers to the Prometheus Demetrius in season 4.