[Liberator]

Based on what I know about the other government health insurance plans, it won't actually be free, just very low copay. It may even have premiums, but the whole thing would be subsidized by the government.

It's not like there's no market for private insurance. Private health insurance companies exist even in countries with free health care for everyone. In the US, there's the added market of everybody that's running around like headless chickens squawking about the government killing old people and forcing abortions and other such nonsense.

The trouble iamzack is that we don't know if it's nonsense or not.  This killing of the elderly and forcing of abortions isn't coming out of no where, Obama's people that he has put into positions of power have been going on about these things and more for they're entire adult life.  It's really very frightening to people when the highest government official starts talking about and suggesting that one of the ways to cut costs is to prescribe painkillers instead of life saving surgery when the patient is above a certain age.

[Nuke]

we should use cancer patients in televised gladitorial combat, the survivor then gets free chemo.

[BloodEagle]

we should use cancer patients in televised gladitorial combat, the survivor then gets free chemo.

We should do that for EVERYTHING.

[iamzack]

Based on what I know about the other government health insurance plans, it won't actually be free, just very low copay. It may even have premiums, but the whole thing would be subsidized by the government.

It's not like there's no market for private insurance. Private health insurance companies exist even in countries with free health care for everyone. In the US, there's the added market of everybody that's running around like headless chickens squawking about the government killing old people and forcing abortions and other such nonsense.

The trouble iamzack is that we don't know if it's nonsense or not.  This killing of the elderly and forcing of abortions isn't coming out of no where, Obama's people that he has put into positions of power have been going on about these things and more for they're entire adult life.  It's really very frightening to people when the highest government official starts talking about and suggesting that one of the ways to cut costs is to prescribe painkillers instead of life saving surgery when the patient is above a certain age.

They are absolutely nonsense. Lots and lots of elderly people are worried about how health care reform might affect the excellent care they get from medicare. You aren't getting that the government will have no more say in a patient's care than private health insurance companies do/will.

The doctor says a patient needs something, then the private or government insurance pays for it. End of story.

The current system, however, has corporations more interested in profits than helping people trying to wriggle out of claims on the stupidest bases possible.

The fear is that the government will come between you and your doctor. Ironically, the government is trying to get everyone OUT from in between you and your doctor.

[Turambar]

It's like we can't even have a rational discussion about this without clearing out all the lies first.  The right wing has been pumping out so many outrageous lies about this thing since day 1, it's simply disgusting.

[Liberator]

Let's not cloud the issue.  I do believe that certain aspects of the health care industry need revision.  I just don't subscribe to the idea that Government is solution to all the ills in my life or anyone else's.

You know there's something wrong with the idea when you have foreign officials in countries that have a "public" option going on national television and telling us it's a bad idea.

The problem is costs.  The only way to cut costs under anything that's been suggested so far is rationing.  Do you want your dad or mom or aunt or whatever to be diagnosed with cancer, given 3 months to live and then be put on a waiting list for treatment that 10 months or a year out?  I wouldn't think so, and that is exactly the kind of horror story we're trying to prevent.

We've got members of Congress telling they're constituents that they need to shut up and that they don't want to talk about it.  But they're gonna go back to Washington and pass some monumental spending bill anyway, without hearing what they're constituents, the people whom they were elected to represent in federal matters.  This smells of elitist oligarchy thinking to me.

[iamzack]

The problem is costs.  The only way to cut costs under anything that's been suggested so far is rationing.  Do you want your dad or mom or aunt or whatever to be diagnosed with cancer, given 3 months to live and then be put on a waiting list for treatment that 10 months or a year out?  I wouldn't think so, and that is exactly the kind of horror story we're trying to prevent.

Okay, first of all, rationing health care is what we have *now.* People with insurance get it, people without insurance don't.. at least not until the very last possible second.

Free preventative health care is ultimately cheaper than what we've got. Would you rather pay for the mammograms for poor women that will detect cancer early enough that it can generally be fought off more quickly and cheaply, or just let them wait until they have advanced stages of cancer and THEN you pay for the treatments. Having health insurance makes the difference between having and not having preventative care.

Second, that horror story doesn't happen. Just stop with the hysteria already.

[Turambar]

I just don't subscribe to the idea that Government is solution to all the ills in my life or anyone else's.

Government is the only entity that can enact change in such an entrenched system.  As you can see right now, they're going all out, using lies, deception, reinforced misconceptions, and their handy paid-for congressmen to put up as much resistance to this bill as possible.  I'm not implicating you in any conspiracy, but the people that you listen to definitely don't have your interests in mind.

Do you want your dad or mom or aunt or whatever to be diagnosed with cancer, given 3 months to live and then be put on a waiting list for treatment that 10 months or a year out?  I wouldn't think so, and that is exactly the kind of horror story we're trying to prevent.

The problem is not costs.  When people aren't spending all their money pumping it into this hideous system, they're spending it on things that create real wealth.

Also, rationing as a concern is a misconception.  It only happens with low-risk or low-urgency patients and it most certainly WILL NOT happen with people who are given a timetable to live.

We've got members of Congress telling they're constituents that they need to shut up and that they don't want to talk about it.  But they're gonna go back to Washington and pass some monumental spending bill anyway, without hearing what they're constituents, the people whom they were elected to represent in federal matters.  This smells of elitist oligarchy thinking to me.

Are you referring to the response to the right wing's attempts to disrupt the townhall meetings where healthcare reform was being discussed?  Where they had to bus in their "majority" and shout lies and make noise to prevent any actual discussion from happening?

[BloodEagle]

This thread is starting to remind me of Empire.

[Liberator]

Are you referring to the response to the right wing's attempts to disrupt the townhall meetings where healthcare reform was being discussed?  Where they had to bus in their "majority" and shout lies and make noise to prevent any actual discussion from happening?

From what I've seen, the vast majority of disruptions have come from congresspeople becoming frustrated that they can't sweep this topic off the table.

And the bussing of people from out of town is related more to lackluster planning of said town halls in an effort to deny the people they're first amendment right to free speech and legitimate communication with they're representative.

I'm talking about the behavior of congresspeople in response to the realization that after all the bull**** and lies from both sides, they have finally started walking on a nerve and the apathy is evaporating faster than ice in the LHC(which remains broken after only 9 hours of operation out of six months since completion).

[Mars]

I have a dream that one day I'll live in a land where the government can get something done.

[iamzack]

That seems unlikely, Liberator, as the point of the town hall meetings is to discuss policy, especially health care reform.

Also, it's not legitimate communication. It's getting up and yelling and ranting about things which five minutes of actual research (that is, looking somewhere other than Fox News) would prove untrue. These people are spreading the lies and disinformation handed down by the corporations who bought the party. They're forcing legitimate communication to take a backseat to coddling the wingnuts and trying to convince them that, no, there are no monsters under the bed who will eat you if there's no light on.

[Kosh]

Maybe because marketing sells, and selling is essential to a business making money?  And most drug ads are for prescription drugs.  And to get a prescription drug, you need a prescription from a doctor, who may or may not agree with your self-diagnosis.  And that still doesn't change the fact that developing drugs is an expensive and lengthy process.  If drug companies can't recoup their losses, they simply won't make drugs.  Ever consider that?

Actually the majority of those costs are not R&D, they are for advertisements and lobbyists.

[Uchuujinsan]

The trouble iamzack is that we don't know if it's nonsense or not.  This killing of the elderly and forcing of abortions isn't coming out of no where, Obama's people that he has put into positions of power have been going on about these things and more for they're entire adult life.  It's really very frightening to people when the highest government official starts talking about and suggesting that one of the ways to cut costs is to prescribe painkillers instead of life saving surgery when the patient is above a certain age.

Step 1: Create public health care that pays for specifically chosen treatments.
Step 2: Force private insurance companies to pay at least for the same treatments as the public health care.
Step 3: Everyone has either to be a member of private or public health care.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

The public health care is there to allow preventive health care, and to pay for health care in emergency rooms. The latter you apparently do already anyway, the former is just the cheaper variant of the latter. So how is that increasing cost?

[blackhole]

You also deserve the title "angry" since you admitted months ago on that "are humans special?" thread that you are always angry. Probably your belief system that makes you feel depressed and angry and I understand how you feel since when I sometimes think the same way as you and wonder if I have a soul and if I'm more than just what I appear to be, I feel depressed and angry too as a result of that and sometimes feeling that we have no purpose.

Oh definitely. I'm an angry rant machine myself. It's just that I consider that a negative personality trait and thus routinely do it at the expense of my own dignity simply because its amusing to other people, and i like making people laugh.

Sadly i do not have a belief system at all, as I am an atheist. This does not make me depressed. It does not make me angry. I never worry about nor care about the fact that life has no purpose, because it doesn't bother me. I have plenty of other things to be emo about.

I don't know why i didn't use a quote in my post. I guess I just thought the general topic would prevail. Or maybe I secretely wanted to push your rant button just because i was bored But hey man, if you don't care what people think of you, then that's perfectly fine. I'll just go on thinking your a crazy ranting nut who will succeed in doing nothing his entire life because the only thing he ever did was wander around forums arguing about completely pointless things that no one is going to care about in 3 months. Right?

[Rick James]

I would like to point out that this forum has a group of moderators with particularly itchy trigger fingers when it comes to the "lock thread" button. This is a topic about health care, not petty arrogance and anger issues.

[iamzack]

Seconded.

[NGTM-1R]

I would like to point out that this forum has a group of moderators with particularly itchy trigger fingers when it comes to the "lock thread" button. This is a topic about health care, not petty arrogance and anger issues.

I'd like to point out that said moderators need to get a grip, since the best discussions HLP has ever had have been ones that were wildly off-topic.

[iamzack]

Would you count a discussion about how blackhole and High Max are angry little beasties as a good discussion? Sounds boring and flamey to me..

[High Max]

I would like to point out that this forum has a group of moderators with particularly itchy trigger fingers when it comes to the "lock thread" button. This is a topic about health care, not petty arrogance and anger issues.

I'd like to point out that said moderators need to get a grip, since the best discussions HLP has ever had have been ones that were wildly off-topic.

Agreed. Most topics seem to turn into more interesting topics or even humorous ones with a little off-topic-ness in the mix and this forum is never super serious anyways, seemingly.

@blackhole: Yes, I am sometimes crazy when it comes to anger (non-violent but sometimes hit objects or want revenge depending on what that person did to me or how angry I feel) or mistrust and I do care to a certain extent what others think about me, but much more so if I know the people or encounter them in person

As for the revenge thing with people who hurt me badly emotionally by using me or lying to me about certain things or hurting my heart and scarring my mind emotionally: using a fake email program on them that they cannot block or telling others the truth about that person who lied to me or played with my heart or used me and letting them know by gathering evidence on that person and sending the evidence to others is a good way to get it. Go for their reputation if they have a lot to lose by letting people know the bad things that person has done by showing them evidence, even letting their family know the truth. Of course never make up lies about a person or it would be very bad. Using the brain is a good way to get even. You can find websites on many people by looking up their Yahoo or other nicks in google and other search engines or checking out sites like facebook, hi5, friendster, and doing a search by their name, id, or email address, and then compare convo evidence with data from other sites and gather data from talking to their friends online about the person to help you find out what they are really up to, if you wanted to go so far depending on who it is and how close you were to that person. I would be a good detective. Many people aren't smart enough to limit the amount of personal info they put online.