[iamzack]

I'm getting a headache from all this facepalming, Liberator.

I ALREADY HAVE GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE. SO DO MILLIONS OF OTHERS. INCLUDING (ESPECIALLY) OLD PEOPLE.

All the government is doing is creating another policy-thinger like Medicare and Tri-care. Why would the government suddenly decide to start killing old people when the government won't even let people kill themselves with the assistance of a physician?

Why don't you see how little sense you're making?

[Flipside]

I've never heard of the NHS trying to be 'better than private care', it's never pretended to be, and it would be self-defeating to try. What the NHS is, is a basic, acceptable standard of life for everyone in the country, the whole idea of 'Euthenasia squads' etc is beyond preposterous, especially since this government is still wrapped up in deciding 'right to die' cases, where the person wants to die, the concept that there are somehow 'death squads' is preposterous.

I think people are taking 'Triage' and converting it to appeal to their own political position to be honest, what the NHS will NOT do, for example, is spend tens of thousands of pounds trying to keep someone alive who stands little or no chance of surviving, hence the famous 'Do not Resuscitate' on terminal patients, because even if they are bought back, it would be a short, and expensive, reprieve, that may buy them 24 hours. This is no different to the US, where the relatives can either decide to have the machine turned off, or, in worst case scenarios, an application can be made to the court.

What amazes me is the concept that somehow, radical Americans claimed they know that the UK 'kill' its pensioners, and didn't once complain about it until it was politically expedient? That smacks more of a political stance than an ethical one to me.

[NGTM-1R]

Okay, Liberator has ended the thread and all consideration as a serious commentator for the next three months...

[Akalabeth Angel]

Has Obama's health care plan changed from his pre-election days? Last I heard his "plan" was to simply provide government subsidies to the insurance costs so effectively health care would cost just as much (ie more than all the other developed countries) just that the government would effectively pay more of the bill and insurance firms would still get a ****load of money.

[SpardaSon21]

Yep.  Latest plan was to force coverage mandates on insurers and create a whole 'nother federal bureaucracy dedicated to acting as an insurance company.

[Turambar]

Somehow, i think Sparda would be singing a different tune if he had leukemia and was trying to get insurance.

[WeatherOp]

Somehow, i think Sparda would be singing a different tune if he had leukemia and was trying to get insurance.

He'd probably have a better chance than our government has of running anything effectively.

[redsniper]

whole 'nother

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- 

[Turambar]

Doesnt matter WeatherOp.  Having people's health reduced to a decision based on profit is wrong and needs to be stopped.

[WeatherOp]

Doesnt matter WeatherOp.  Having people's health reduced to a decision based on profit is wrong and needs to be stopped.

I actually agree with you. Like I said before, Healthcare does need to be reformed. But, it's just crazy to say something needs to be reformed so bad, that we will let someone who likes to throw away money like it's nothing, and yet still have a huge chance of failure in the end. It's like paying someone a ton of money to mow your fields, yet knowing they will use a butter knife.

[General Battuta]

Are you talking about Obama and health care, or Bush and Iraq?

Where did this sudden concern with fiscal care come from? Wasn't that the liberal talking point for the last eight years as Bush drove the economy and the budget balance deep into the red?

[WeatherOp]

Are you talking about Obama and health care, or Bush and Iraq?

Where did this sudden concern with fiscal care come from? Wasn't that the liberal talking point for the last eight years as Bush drove the economy and the budget balance deep into the red?

No, actually, I'm talking about it all. I'm sickened by the stimulus packages(Bush and Obama) and to know they are planning to spend another half trillion to a trillion in the middle of a bad recession just ticks me off.

Face it, at least in the Bush wars, whether you where for it or against it, there were an actual enemy. But, in something like this, you know the government is just gonna crap it up as they always do.

[General Battuta]

Fair enough, I can agree with that.

[Spicious]

Face it, at least in the Bush wars, whether you where for it or against it, there were an actual enemy. But, in something like this, you know the government is just gonna crap it up as they always do.

How does having an enemy help? (Especially when one enemy is only an enemy because people are shouting that he's an enemy.) Also, just because the Republicans fail at government (and war for that matter) does not imply that Obama will also fail.

Please provide your alternative that does not involve acquiescing to the every whim of various companies gouging people without piles of cash.

[WeatherOp]

Face it, at least in the Bush wars, whether you where for it or against it, there were an actual enemy. But, in something like this, you know the government is just gonna crap it up as they always do.

How does having an enemy help? (Especially when one enemy is only an enemy because people are shouting that he's an enemy.) Also, just because the Republicans fail at government (and war for that matter) does not imply that Obama will also fail.

Please provide your alternative that does not involve acquiescing to the every whim of various companies gouging people without piles of cash.

When I said having an enemy, I meant something literal, as in something you can face. When your worst enemy is yourself, guess what happens?

Oh so having faith in a politician, a politician, just because we don't know he will fail is a good thing? Even when this faith is a trillion dollars. Ohh, so Bush wasted money, so we have to let Obama waste money too?

Please, let him prove his huge stimulus package was worth it and let him drive us out of this recession before we let him spend another trillion dollars.

Personally, I don't know what we can do about solving the healthcare problem here. But, I'll tell you this, what the insurance companies gouge out of us, is nothing to what the government will if they spend a trillion dollars and crap it up.

[iamzack]

I just realized that my medical history will probably prevent me from getting health insurance that I can afford after I lose my parents' insurance. Frak.

Obamacare, please!

[Kosh]

Need I go on?

Yes, please explain how its massive land inefficiencies make it suitable for land squeezed countries. Solar power is inefficient, and so if we were to depend heavily on it we would have to build way over what we otherwise would need to in order to feed the energy conversion (such as the salt thing that was mentioned) process which ends up wasting even more energy and introducing more inefficiences into the system, not to mention more land to be needed. Just in terms of land usage it makes no sense to depend so much on it. I'm not saying there isn't a place for it, but I don't think it is wise to bet the whole farm on something that is proven to be inefficient too often unreliable.

However as it turns out, big new solar farms seem to be running into major opposition from......environmentalists

Fission power is extremely effective, is extremely clean, yet the environmental lobby is opposed to it.

I would support fission but it still has problems (limited supply, time to build power stations and more).

Limited supply of what? Uranium is everywhere and is a surprisingly common resource. Part of the problem with time to build power stations is that there's enormous amounts of beaucratic red tape as well as constant lawsuits against it.

Healthcare does need to be reformed.

I think the 50 million people without insurance and the rest of us who are all stuck with outrageous costs might want to have a word with you.

[WeatherOp]

I think the 50 million people without insurance and the rest of us who are all stuck with outrageous costs might want to have a word with you.

Sure go ahead, I'm stuck with outrageous cost too. But, lets go with the government who craps everything up's plan. Then we'll be stuck with outrageous cost and a worthless dollar to pay it with. Ohh joy.  

[iamzack]

WeatherOp, the random stuff you pull out of your ass on the effectiveness of government health insurance conflicts with my actual experience with government health insurance. Hmm...

[Flipside]

Thing is, I can't help thinking back to my fathers' heart attack in February, not only did the NHS act with incredible speed and efficiency, to the point where there appears to be almost no muscle damage to his heart from the attack, but within a month, they'd performed 2 more angioplast operations to widen 2 arteries that were 50% blocked.

Thing is what people hear about the NHS is ambulances that don't turn up, and appointments that take months, people are more likely to be vocal about a mistake than shouting that they got an appointment in 3 weeks, everything went fine, and they got the treatment they needed.