Author Topic: CP or not?  (Read 10705 times)

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Offline Fury

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A friend at work found months old news article about someone getting busted over having child porn in the form of cartoons. We had a lightweight debate whether it really is child porn or not. What are your thoughts about it? I'm sure many of you are also familiar with the word "hentai", do you think it classifies as child porn should it feature clearly underage characters even though it's just images or animation?

I'm really split about it. I think there is a fine line and some people just may cross it for the worse, but unlike real child porn, most of the internet population has seen cartoon porn or hentai in a form or another.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:31:32 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Hentai is a terribly annoying grey area. A lot of artists draw characters that are definitely of age in an extremely childlike fashion (which pisses me off no end), and a lot people draw what are probably underaged characters much too developed. (Just to make it worse there are series where the characters have grown up over the course of it so you can't really be sure what you're dealing with.)

Hentai can obviously be of purely gratitious child content when you start talking about small flat-chested girls (then again, I could name anime with small flat-chested girls who are in fact centuries or millenia old; Vita from Nanoha comes to mind, so do we go with how the character looks or what?), but it's the ones who were drawn in a style that suggests they're young with a C-cup where things become...annoying.
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Offline zookeeper

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A friend at work found months old news article about someone getting busted over having child porn in the form of cartoons. We had a lightweight debate whether it really is child porn or not. What are your thoughts about it? I'm sure many of you are also familiar with the word "hentai", do you think it classifies as child porn should it feature clearly underage characters even though it's just images or animation?

I'm really split about it. I think there is a fine line and some people just may cross it for the worse, but unlike real child porn, most of the internet population has seen cartoon porn or hentai in a form or another.
What does it matter whether we call such cartoons "child porn" or not? It doesn't, since either way it wouldn't change anything about how they should be treated.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Ah crap, a zealot.
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Offline Mefustae

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It comes down to whether we want to protect the children exploited in this media, or punish those who enjoy looking at it. That's a crucial distinction. When you nick someone for possessing, distributing, or god forbid producing it, the primary action being taken is the protection of individuals that are being exploited in horrible, horrible ways. They're taking advantage of people who can't defend themselves, and as such anyone involved needs to get charged to the full extent of the law ASAP.

However, I don't think that drawings, renderings, and soforth created entirely from the mind and not involving, endangering, or exploiting actual human beings should result in an equal condemnation. Punishing an individual for looking at drawings does not protect anyone beyond a theoretical implication that future abuse may occur on behalf of the offender.

I'm just going to cut through all the bull**** and say that I think that drawings, intellectual property, should not be treated - in effect be afforded the same rights - as the human beings in actual images. A drawing is not a human being, and therefore does not need to be protected. As such, even if the image is of utterly vulgar, horrible content, there is no need for protection. The issue becomes moot, and shifts to mere punishment of the viewer. When you punish someone for having pictures, how can you draw the line between artificial images and simply thinking about it? Where can the line be drawn between acting to protect children, and honest-to-god thought-policing?

Urgh, it's a hard issue to argue about. And hentai is a very murky issue, evidenced by the whole blowup over the RapeLay game.

 

Offline Fury

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I'm just going to cut through all the bull**** and say that I think that drawings, intellectual property, should not be treated - in effect be afforded the same rights - as the human beings in actual images. A drawing is not a human being, and therefore does not need to be protected. As such, even if the image is of utterly vulgar, horrible content, there is no need for protection. The issue becomes moot, and shifts to mere punishment of the viewer. When you punish someone for having pictures, how can you draw the line between artificial images and simply thinking about it? Where can the line be drawn between acting to protect children, and honest-to-god thought-policing?
Good points, good points.

However, what you think of CGI movie that looks really realistic, almost indistinguishable from real movie? You would have very real-like child abuse video done 100% with CGI which does not endanger or abuse any real human being.

 

Offline Mefustae

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However, what you think of CGI movie that looks really realistic, almost indistinguishable from real movie? You would have very real-like child abuse video done 100% with CGI which does not endanger or abuse any real human being.
A very good question.

With this, you start getting into really fuzzy areas we're only just starting to encounter. It's the same thing that will inevitably arise with artificial intelligences and life-like robots. Do we afford the rights of a human being to an entity that is indistinguishable from one, but is nonetheless not human? In your example, it's a comparatively simpler issue given that it's entirely simulated and there is no underlying intelligence or reality to it, only perceived reality, but it's still an amazingly complicated issue.

If I had to come down on one side or the other, I'm going to have to say that it's too risky to start equating simulations - even extremely realistic simulations - the same rights as a living human being. Ultimately, if there is no harm being done, then no punishment is warranted. It's brutal, and it's unsightly, but it's the best way of doing things.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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That's not even remotely practical. Maybe I'm in slightly closer touch with the 3D community than you; maybe I'm more aware of it what it takes to do that; the simple truth is that while 3D has made great strides, lifelike such as that is still far from possible. Sure, Revenge of the Fallen had awesome CGI and all (which took mass render farms of zombified high-end machines each rendering a single frame years, and actually burned some of them out), but we don't even have a reliable texturing method that will simulate human skin accurately yet. (If you don't believe me, look over at Renderosity and Renderotica.) Men, whether drawing or acting, remain superior to machines for the forseeable future. The question is moot.
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Offline Fury

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The question is not moot because we're discussing theoretics and ethics here. Also, Final Fantasy Spirits Within and Final Fantasy Advent Children are close enough CGI-wise for having the discussion now rather than in five years.

 

Offline Mefustae

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That's not even remotely practical. Maybe I'm in slightly closer touch with the 3D community than you; maybe I'm more aware of it what it takes to do that; the simple truth is that while 3D has made great strides, lifelike such as that is still far from possible. Sure, Revenge of the Fallen had awesome CGI and all (which took mass render farms of zombified high-end machines each rendering a single frame years, and actually burned some of them out), but we don't even have a reliable texturing method that will simulate human skin accurately yet. (If you don't believe me, look over at Renderosity and Renderotica.) Men, whether drawing or acting, remain superior to machines for the forseeable future. The question is moot.
True, but it's a reasonable extrapolation. At some point in the near future, the technology will exist to produce entirely lifelike simulations without involving living actors in any way. With that in mind, it's a fair point to argue the possibility and the ramifications of such a technology.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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The question is not moot because we're discussing theoretics and ethics here. Also, Final Fantasy Spirits Within and Final Fantasy Advent Children are close enough CGI-wise for having the discussion now rather than in five years.

Fine, then it's moot in another way, the one Mefustae pointed out: it is without actual human involvement. :P Five years is also extremely optimistic. Try twenty.
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Offline karajorma

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Except that Mefustae went one step further.

Suppose you do have an AI that passes the Turing Test and is basically a perfect AI human child. What is really the difference between someone abusing that and abusing a human child?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline StarSlayer

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Good God robo pedophiles, like the world wasn't messed up enough.  :P  If the AI is truly sentient with emotions and feelings then at the very least it should be covered by similar laws as we place on pets (ASPCA laws and enforcement are surprisingly tough).  Bare minimum.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Suppose you do have an AI that passes the Turing Test and is basically a perfect AI human child. What is really the difference between someone abusing that and abusing a human child?

There isn't one. Of course that assumes a lot of things about how AIs would work... :P
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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A friend at work found months old news article about someone getting busted over having child porn in the form of cartoons. We had a lightweight debate whether it really is child porn or not. What are your thoughts about it? I'm sure many of you are also familiar with the word "hentai", do you think it classifies as child porn should it feature clearly underage characters even though it's just images or animation?

Child porn in the form of cartoons = Loli

At least, that's how I look at it. :nervous:
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Offline Stealth

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Suppose you do have an AI that passes the Turing Test and is basically a perfect AI human child. What is really the difference between someone abusing that and abusing a human child?
I think this argument is complex enough that we don't need to pull in "what-ifs" for situations that are decades in the future, if ever.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Suppose you do have an AI that passes the Turing Test and is basically a perfect AI human child. What is really the difference between someone abusing that and abusing a human child?

That will never happen. At least I don't believe it ever will.

Debating over things that odn't exist, havent happened, or we don't have full knowledge/understanding is not likely to bring any fruit.
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Offline Galemp

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This is the second thread in as many days with That Phrase in the title. Can we PLEASE rename it? Some of us don't like those page titles in our browser's history, or being funneled through our ISP.

Thank you. See that it doesn't happen again.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:58:07 pm by Galemp »
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Offline Snail

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I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI thinks that even talking about child porn is somehow contributing to the sexual abuse of children.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Thread retitled. Better?