[High Max]

Selfish to the extreme. Do you have no heart? Carrying on about your rights when it comes to your own baby? If you are so worried about it, control your actions and plan ahead and it wouldn't occupy you to begin with. I'm disturbed. Alright, I'm done with this small abortion chat and this time I mean it. Back to population and Liberator's topic. Immigration.

[iamzack]

Are you kidding me? You're accusing ME of being heartless for wanting to have a choice in whether I allow another living being to take up residence in my stomach while simultaneously saying that it's totally not in conflict with your pro-life beliefs to not give a damn if I am murdered for exercising my rights?

[General Battuta]

not to mention our unconditional support of the terrorist nation Israel

Keep up your Antisemitism and I'll be more than happy to report your bigoted ass.

From my perspective, the events you talk about as terrorist act were in fact acts in support for people bleeding and dying in attempts to enjoy the same freedom we do here.

'Terrorist state Israel' may have been a more precise to put it, but his statement was no more bigoted than 'terrorist state Iran' or 'terrorist state Afghanistan.' A state is not an ethnic group and Israel =! Jews.

Remember, from someone else's perspective, the events you talk about as terrorism (9/11) were in fact acts of support for people bleeding and dying in an attempt to enjoy the freedoms they have been so long denied. Doesn't make it right, does it?

And thanks for selectively ignoring everything said to you up above. You dodge from misguided statement to misguided statement, trying to avoid admitting any wrong.

[MP-Ryan]

Are you kidding me? You're accusing ME of being heartless for wanting to have a choice in whether I allow another living being to take up residence in my stomach while simultaneously saying that it's totally not in conflict with your pro-life beliefs to not give a damn if I am murdered for exercising my rights?

If you have a living being taking up residence in your stomach you have bigger problems than the abortion debate  

[Spicious]

Selfish to the extreme. Do you have no heart? Carrying on about your rights when it comes to your own baby? If you are so worried about it, control your actions and plan ahead and it wouldn't occupy you to begin with. I'm disturbed. Alright, I'm done with this small abortion chat and this time I mean it. Back to population and Liberator's topic. Immigration.

Arrogant to the extreme. Do you have no brain? Carrying on about the rights of some mindless collection of cells when it comes to the rights of a human being. (Unfortunately I can't mirror it any further because thankfully High Max can't do anything about this.)

I like your hypocrisy of saying America is bad for conducting terrorism, but doing the same to support your cause is fine. Very well done!

[Turambar]

And thanks for selectively ignoring everything said to you up above. You dodge from misguided statement to misguided statement, trying to avoid admitting any wrong.

Can't really blame him.  The more people know, the less defensible his positions are.

[MP-Ryan]

From my perspective, the events you talk about as terrorist act were in fact acts in support for people bleeding and dying in attempts to enjoy the same freedom we do here.

Apparently I missed the divine edict that declared Liberator's perspective as the absolute correct one.  Can someone link me?  /sarcasm.

You're not going to win any point in an argument by relying on subjective interpretation.  According to the objective definition, the United States of America was founded by terrorists.  You just happen to value what they did and their ultimate accomplishments.  The only real difference between the revolutionaries of the 1770s and the terrorists of today is about 240 years of weapons development.

[High Max]

I like your hypocrisy of saying America is bad for conducting terrorism, but doing the same to support your cause is fine. Very well done!

Yes, well done. Of course I was imagining this: http://mttu.com/abort-pics/head-jar.jpg (WARNING: graphic depiction of aborted fetus)

EDITED OUT

That was one reason I felt so bad. I hope it wasn't a violation to post that picture. If so, I'm sorry. That picture makes me feel sadness.

[General Battuta]

That was way, way too much to put in-line in a post.

Jesus Christ.

Personally I'm not a big fan of third-trimester abortions, for reasons just like that; but the fact that a medical procedure is gruesome is not in and of itself an argument against the procedure.

[MP-Ryan]

Now that that train wreck of a photo is gone, the vast majority of legal abortions are conducted between conception and 8 weeks gestation, well before the fetus is even recognizable as human.  I strongly suspect that picture is actually out of context.  The photo actually looks like it depicts a deceased fetus following a catastrophic case of shoulder dysplasia, in which the fetal head/shoulder become stuck under the mother's pelvis during delivery.  In extreme cases, the fetus cannot be pulled backward into the uterus by caesarean section, or delivered vaginally.  The ultimate result is fetal death.  Unfortunately, the only way the corpse can be removed is by surgically sectioning it.  (And before anyone asks, my wife is a Labour/Delivery/Postpartum RN who often needs to debrief when she gets home from work).

No legal abortions are performed by decapitating the fetus, AND that picture shows a fetus somewhere between 30 and 40 weeks gestation... at which point the only legal abortion that may be performed is in order to prevent serious health effects (e.g. death) to the mother.

[Sushi]

Yikes. This thread is going nowhere fast. Isn't there a variant of Godwin's law for abortion?

I do think America is something special, but I don't think it's the only country that can make a valid claim to that. There are a lot of nations and peoples with some great things to admire about them, definitely including the USA. I don't think immigrants threaten what's good and solid and great about America because they're showing up to join it, not to wreck it.

And on the flip side, America has its problems, but I don't buy the idea that it's a walking disaster trying to pretend it isn't. (Except for maybe some of our economic policy ). But culturally, it's still more good than bad. Especially on the people-actually-living-there level.

[Mongoose]

Yikes. This thread is going nowhere fast. Isn't there a variant of Godwin's law for abortion?

Honestly.  It's like the perfect cluster**** of Internet flamebait topics.

[Liberator]

Ohhhh I get it. You're only pro-life if it's not the life of someone who matters (in your opinion). I get it.

Well, I am pro-life except for when it comes to people who want a say in what goes on in MY uterus.

Then I suggest you be more selective about what goes into your vagina as well.

And frankly my dear, your rights end at the point where they threaten the life of someone who has done you no wrong other than have the (mis)fortune of having you for a mother.  Now I'm not going to sit here and argue semantics on what is and isn't a baby.  I'm willing to be flexible a bit, but if it requires surgery to remove, no matter how safe for the mother, it probably should wait to come out the way it was designed.

[karajorma]

not to mention our unconditional support of the terrorist nation Israel

Keep up your Antisemitism and I'll be more than happy to report your bigoted ass.

Report away. No one on the admin staff will care.

He complained about unconditional support for Israel. That is always wrong. You can not support Israel and turn a blind eye to everything it does and then claim to support freedom and democracy.

So you really need to look up what an anti-Semite actually is before accusing other people of being one.

[Unknown Target]

I like your hypocrisy of saying America is bad for conducting terrorism, but doing the same to support your cause is fine. Very well done!

Yes, well done. Of course I was imagining this: http://mttu.com/abort-pics/head-jar.jpg (WARNING: graphic depiction of aborted fetus)

EDITED OUT

That was one reason I felt so bad. I hope it wasn't a violation to post that picture. If so, I'm sorry. That picture makes me feel sadness.

Yea, don't. Don't do that again. Ever. Consider it an official warning.

[blackhole]

This thread is quite possibly the most concentrated extract of stupid I've seen on the forums. Except for that 180 page evolution debate.

Liberator wins the "ARE YOU GUYS SAYING SOMETHING BECAUSE I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY OPINIONS" award for the week. And possibly the entire next month too. Maybe even the year if he tries hard enough.

High Max, please focus on saving the innocent lives that are being lost to excruciatingly painful deaths in africa and elsewhere; as opposed to an unfeeling ball of cells that you seem so emotionally attached to. Maybe because the latter is much easier to save, right? So because we can save a ball of cells by yelling at people at the top of our lungs instead of actually doing something, they're more important then all the people who are STARVING TO DEATH.

Great logic. Absolutely impeccable.

[karajorma]

Imagine a kid hearing their mother say, I choose if you have the right to occupy my utrerus and if I don't want you too, your life ends. I knew if I had a mother like that, I would be devastated and scared. That is pretty obsessive about rights to where it is becoming disturbing. What has this world come too? Thank god my mother never would think that way. I would feel like leaving someone like that and feel so unloved.

See, this is just proof of the way you think about things. You're so caught up in you own opinion that you don't stop to think about it.

If you have a pro-choice mother you know she wanted to have you. She decided that giving up 9 months of her life was worth it to bring you into the world.

If you have a pro-life mother on the other hand you don't have a clue if she wanted you or not. She may have just simply believed that it was wrong to give up a child for adoption as well as abortion. She may have got pregnant and simply been unable to terminate the child she didn't want. She may only be caring for you because she's swallowed the bollocks pro-lifers talk about taking responsibility for her actions. She may actually hate having a child and only be raising you cause of that.

When someone chooses to do something despite having the option to not do so it means a hell of a lot more than if they were forced.

[Liberator]

Can't save those who aren't willing to be saved.  Those starving people you talk about, they're being oppressed by warlords and drug kingpins who 9 out of 10 times intercept the relief shipments.  They would a lot less likely to be starving if the aforementioned thugs were out of the picture.  Logically, it would fall to some country or organization to annihilate said thugs.  Hmm, I wonder who would be the first to do that...oh, wait, that's unlawful interference in the affairs of another nation...

Hell, I'd drop a nuke on the UN if I thought it would stop the self-important, over bearing, power hungry nit wit politicians from gumming up the works with they're petty self-serving bull****, but it wouldn't cause there's several million willing and able to take they're place.

[Mars]

Liberator - do you really think about what you're saying? Your argument boils down to:

We can't save the innocent Africans starving to death, we can't force their warlords to let them have aid.

We can save the innocent fetuses in the unwilling mothers. (how?)

[High Max]

I wouldn't ever support a nuke being used on a country. That would kill everyone in a country, no matter who they are. That sounds more heartless than the abortion argument in some ways since it would kill countless people. Imagine the rage one would feel if they had foreign loved ones or a foreign girl in that country and your country bombed them. I would understand wanting complete revenge on your own country's government if that happened.

We can save the innocent fetuses in the unwilling mothers. (how?)

No one can since the mothers would just use home made ways to abort. I'm sure some mothers in pretty much every country abort, whether they make it public to anyone else or if they keep it secret to everyone except themselves. It can't be stopped and it is like you can't stop the sun from setting, crime from occuring, or people from eventually meeting their physical end.