[karajorma]

Hell, I'd drop a nuke on the UN if I thought it would stop the self-important, over bearing, power hungry nit wit politicians from gumming up the works with they're petty self-serving bull****

You do realise the UN headquarters are in New York right?

[High Max]

That was a good one Bomb yourself. But maybe the headquarters changed and New York isn't the primary one anymore. But I guess it never changed.

[karajorma]

Or you could actually spend literally 20 seconds to check on Wikipedia or Google or the UN website rather than looking just as uninformed as Liberator by saying that.

[Mongoose]

If you have a pro-choice mother you know she wanted to have you. She decided that giving up 9 months of her life was worth it to bring you into the world.

...

When someone chooses to do something despite having the option to not do so it means a hell of a lot more than if they were forced.

Not to jump into this cesspool of flames regarding a topic I really don't want to debate via the 'tubes (why the hell am I doing this...), but I did want to single out this line of thinking.  Maybe it's a case of YMMV, but I'd infinitely rather have the mother whom I know would never have considered abortion in the first place, even if it came down to external influences, over the mother who could have easily prevented me from walking around in the world if her financial situation wasn't all that great, or she wanted to advance in her career, or she just didn't feel like having kids.  (And what I'd really love to see is a world where those first two factors don't force someone into a decision that they wouldn't otherwise have taken, but we're a long way from that yet.)  Given the choice (hee, how loaded that word's become), I'll always side with the option that would have utterly guaranteed me a shot at the world, and I'll have far more respect for that person.  Who knows, maybe that's just me.

And just to throw in one last tidbit that's probably going to piss someone or other off, I don't see how the "personal responsibility" mantra is bollocks at all.  I think we'd all agree that penis + vagina = pregnancy, at least at certain times of the month, and especially if there's nothing physical or chemical preventing the products of the two from coming together.  Provided the two people putting said penis and vagina together both consent to it, that action is entirely in their hands (or loins), as are any potential consequences that may result from it.  As horrifically naive and idiotic as the abstinence-only movement in this country has been in its execution, they at least get one little factoid right: the only way to absolutely ensure that there's no chance of pregnancy is not to have vaginal intercourse in the first place.  Hell, if it's a matter of getting one's rocks off, why not just fap/schlick the day away and avoid all of the risks entirely?

[High Max]

Hell, if it's a matter of getting one's rocks off, why not just fap/schlick the day away and avoid all of the risks entirely?

Well it is healthier and safer that way, and I think it is more moral doing it alone if you have no love that you are in a serious relationship with than doing it with a person you don't love. They say 100 orgasms a year can help you live longer since it releases hormones, like dopamine, and if you don't have a love, you can have the health benefits of orgasm and good feelings too by doing it alone without going out and using people's bodies for sex or getting viruses or getting them pregnant, etc. It's all the pros without the cons in this case. But I wouldn't say do it all day. Too much of anything can be harmful. You would probably hurt yourself from soreness too

[TrashMan]

You're one sad, hopeless little man.

For loving ones country and culture?
Love yours, respect the others.

not to mention our unconditional support of the terrorist nation Israel

Keep up your Antisemitism and I'll be more than happy to report your bigoted ass.

Not liking the sate of Israel does not equal not liking all the jews.
Israel does NOT equal jews.
Israel = state that acts like a bunch of dicks
Jews = group of people

[TrashMan]

so, you value this



more than a thinking feeling human being.

interesting.

Value over? Why? Does the mother have to die for some strange reason? Last time I checked pregnancy doesn't end with death of the mother.

Well, I am pro-life except for when it comes to people who want a say in what goes on in MY uterus.

You had a say. But you f*** up. It's so easier to clamor about rights and freedom and kill you offspring than actually taking responsibilty for the life you created (but don't actually own).

Apparently I missed the divine edict that declared Liberator's perspective as the absolute correct one.  Can someone link me?  /sarcasm.

It's the same one everyone uses. Surprised much?

[Akalabeth Angel]

I worry about this because I see it happening where I live, vast numbers of immigrants who don't bother to learn the language or even the basic laws.  The ones I've met are decent folk, but they're not making much attempt to integrate into the existing culture.

So what. People are supposed to completely abandon what they are and where they came from? Culture forms people. It forms the way they think, the way they act. You can't just change that after 20-30 years.

Even if they do conform. What then. You'll think "oh these chinese immigrants are more british than I am now! Oh my God! They're not British! I'm British!" or whatever country you're from.

People have to born into a culture to really be a part of that culture. Either that or live there for a long long time.

And realistically. Culture has nothing to do with the survival of the species or whatever nonsense you're talking about. Species survival is pure genetics. And in that, there is strength in diversity (ie Immigration is good).



And unless everyone is integrated into some Borg Collective there will always be regional differences. Whether the region is a different country, state/province, or town there will be differences. That's natural. Immigrants won't turn your country into their country. People, especially second generation immigrants are so far removed from their parent country that they don't really belong there either. People know they're outsiders.

But whatever.

[Flipside]

I'm not even going to bother with the whole pro-choice/no-choice debate this time, in fact, considering that this is the second meandering thread in as many days, I'm tempted to lock if it weren't for the fact someone would probably claim bias.

Edit: Just remembered, I don't care.

[karajorma]

Not to jump into this cesspool of flames regarding a topic I really don't want to debate via the 'tubes (why the hell am I doing this...), but I did want to single out this line of thinking.  Maybe it's a case of YMMV, but I'd infinitely rather have the mother whom I know would never have considered abortion in the first place, even if it came down to external influences, over the mother who could have easily prevented me from walking around in the world if her financial situation wasn't all that great, or she wanted to advance in her career, or she just didn't feel like having kids.  (And what I'd really love to see is a world where those first two factors don't force someone into a decision that they wouldn't otherwise have taken, but we're a long way from that yet.)  Given the choice (hee, how loaded that word's become), I'll always side with the option that would have utterly guaranteed me a shot at the world, and I'll have far more respect for that person.  Who knows, maybe that's just me.

The point I was making was that you could just as easily turn the nonsensical argument I was replying to on its head and argue that pro-choice mothers wanted to bring their children into the world more.

Basically both arguments are shallow and shortsighted and anyone arguing that whether a woman is pro-choice or pro-life has any effect on how much she loves her kids is stupid.

And just to throw in one last tidbit that's probably going to piss someone or other off, I don't see how the "personal responsibility" mantra is bollocks at all.  I think we'd all agree that penis + vagina = pregnancy, at least at certain times of the month, and especially if there's nothing physical or chemical preventing the products of the two from coming together.  Provided the two people putting said penis and vagina together both consent to it, that action is entirely in their hands (or loins), as are any potential consequences that may result from it.  As horrifically naive and idiotic as the abstinence-only movement in this country has been in its execution, they at least get one little factoid right: the only way to absolutely ensure that there's no chance of pregnancy is not to have vaginal intercourse in the first place.  Hell, if it's a matter of getting one's rocks off, why not just fap/schlick the day away and avoid all of the risks entirely?

It's bollocks because this is the ONLY facet of life you apply this bull**** to.

We all know that mouth + cigarette = cancer. Have you ever made the argument that we shouldn't treat people who get cancer and are smokers because they're responsible for it?

We all know that mountain + climbing = Fall + Broken leg if you do it wrong, should we tell people who do it to take responsibility for their broken limbs and just let them make their own way down the mountain?

[Flipside]

I'm going to unlock for now, because there's obviously still discussion to be had on the matter, but I'll add it's against my own personal better judgement

[Turambar]

Okay, basically this is all there is to the abortion debate:

Would you allow the government to decide that you HAVE to give up your kidney to someone who needs it to live?

No, right?

Then why should I have to give up my uterus?

(iamzack, btw)

[General Battuta]

 

Liberator hasn't even acknowledged any of the dozen points he's had shot out from under his feet already. If he's going to ramble about personal responsibility (apparently he has never considered that pregnancy is, to some, a treatable side effect of a vital social activity in the context of loving relationships), he should man up and acknowledge how many things he's been wrong about already.

As it stands, he's either an epic troll, or he's just closing his eyes and listening to conservative talk radio to wipe away the things we post.

[Rodo]

We're all citizens of Earth.


Frak, it really is going to take aliens or robot rebellions for us to realize that as a species, isnt it.

sad, but probably true.

[NGTM-1R]

As it stands, he's either an epic troll, or he's just closing his eyes and listening to conservative talk radio to wipe away the things we post.

Put bluntly he knows he can't win, so he's pulling the self-suppression I alluded to when debunking Trashman once. He lost so many times before he left the first time that he's not even going to attempt to argue a point anymore.

[Turambar]

It's too bad conservatives are so wrapped up in parroting Fox that we can't even have a proper debate. It's all "OOGA BOOGA" from conservatives and coddling and reason from liberals and we don't get anywhere.

[General Battuta]

Well, liberals are every bit as vulnerable to confirmation bias and ego protection as conservatives. We all share fundamental human cognitive flaws.

But MP-Ryan at least is kind of a threadwinner.

[zookeeper]

It's too bad conservatives are so wrapped up in parroting Fox that we can't even have a proper debate. It's all "OOGA BOOGA" from conservatives and coddling and reason from liberals and we don't get anywhere.

I guess you've forgotten about the first page of this thread already, then.

[TrashMan]

We all know that mouth + cigarette = cancer. Have you ever made the argument that we shouldn't treat people who get cancer and are smokers because they're responsible for it?

You're equating pregnancy with a deadly desease and injury with destruction of life?

[General Battuta]

We all know that mouth + cigarette = cancer. Have you ever made the argument that we shouldn't treat people who get cancer and are smokers because they're responsible for it?

You're equating pregnancy with a deadly desease and injury with destruction of life?

For a woman, the hazards to her health, livelihood, and life prospects can be as severe.

Now as far as I'm concerned contraception is a way better way to handle this than abortion, but women need a way to tackle this incredible disadvantage they're saddled with.