[StarSlayer]

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/09/say_grace_go_to_jail.html?hpid=talkbox1

Basically two school officials got a court order to prohibit prayer in school, nine days later they went ahead and did it anyway.  Now religion in schools is one of my pet peeves.  Aside from teaching it within the context of its affect on history and society, it has no place in the curriculum.  But it was on the news and they had all these folks calling in support of school prayer yada yada and we're the Christian majority blah blah.  Never mind they violated a court order.  I'd bet my last dollar if those two officials had read out of the Qur'an these same fools would be calling up demanding their heads on pikes.

[MR_T3D]

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/09/say_grace_go_to_jail.html?hpid=talkbox1

Basically two school officials got a court order to prohibit prayer in school, nine days later they went ahead and did it anyway.  Now religion in schools is one of my pet peeves.  Aside from teaching it within the context of its affect on history and society, it has no place in the curriculum.  But it was on the news and they had all these folks calling in support of school prayer yada yada and we're the Christian majority blah blah.  Never mind they violated a court order.  I'd bet my last dollar if those two officials had read out of the Qur'an these same fools would be calling up demanding their heads on pikes.

please, pikes are so barbaric, they just want them hung or something.
but yeah, tis is why i am so glad that i never had to expirence the US public school system.

[iamzack]

hanged*

The problem is that these people don't know the difference between "promoting, advancing, aiding, facilitating, endorsing, or causing religious prayers or devotionals during school-sponsored events" and privately praying to themselves during said school-sponsored events.

Essentially, their religion mandates cult-like indoctrination and evangelizing, which makes their religion incompatible with other people's rights, freedoms, and choices. Yes, I am implying that such religions as Christianity and Islam are inherently incompatible with living in a free society.

[Mongoose]

Essentially, their religion mandates cult-like indoctrination and evangelizing, which makes their religion incompatible with other people's rights, freedoms, and choices. Yes, I am implying that such religions as Christianity and Islam are inherently incompatible with living in a free society.

You do realize that statements like that make you sound every bit as ridiculous as the Westboro Baptist nuts, right?  Just wondering.

From the article headline, I thought this was something like a case of students being prohibited from saying private grace for themselves, which would have been immensely stupid.  But I'm in full agreement with the court order.  In a public school setting, the administration has no place promoting any particular religious beliefs.

[Flipside]

Thing is, he's a teacher, he's representing the school, and should moderate his behaviour to take that into account, if he wants to represent his religion, then no-one is stopping him from training to be a priest.

[MR_T3D]

hanged*

The problem is that these people don't know the difference between "promoting, advancing, aiding, facilitating, endorsing, or causing religious prayers or devotionals during school-sponsored events" and privately praying to themselves during said school-sponsored events.

Essentially, their religion mandates cult-like indoctrination and evangelizing, which makes their religion incompatible with other people's rights, freedoms, and choices. Yes, I am implying that such religions as Christianity and Islam are inherently incompatible with living in a free society.

thank you for the grammar, i can never remember which one is proper..
and SECULAR HUMMANISM FTW!!1

[Mars]

There are thousands of Christans that aren't that rediculous banning religions = a terrible idea.

[Wobble73]

There are thousands of Christans that aren't that rediculous banning religions = a terrible idea.

But banning religious indoctrination in a school setting where it doesn't belong = good idea.

[Turambar]

There are thousands of Christans that aren't that rediculous banning religions = a terrible idea.

But banning religious indoctrination in a school setting where it doesn't belong = good idea.

Those wacky Christians would argue that school is indoctrination

[iamzack]

I didn't suggest banning anything. I just said that the doctrines of Christianity and Islam and any other religion that puts a cult-level emphasis on converting others is going to inevitably conflict with other people's rights. And that that makes them incompatible with a society in which those rights are guaranteed.

If some Christians and Muslims can contain themselves, good on them. But that's not enough of them to protect them from criticism.

[Scotty]

If some Christians and Muslims can contain themselves, good on them. But that's not enough of them to protect them the rest of them from criticism.

Fixed.

Those wacky Christians would argue that school is indoctrination

Is "wacky" in this statement a blanket classification?

There are thousands of Christans that aren't that rediculous banning religions = a terrible idea.

But banning religious indoctrination in a school setting where it doesn't belong = good idea.

Yes, though that article headline makes it seem like private prayer was banned, which would be a bad idea.  That principal does have the wrong idea to be sure, however.

Yes, I am implying that such religions as Christianity and Islam are inherently incompatible with living in a free society.

Surely it would be all right if we kept ourselves out of school and government?

[Turambar]

Those wacky Christians would argue that school is indoctrination

Is "wacky" in this statement a blanket classification?

Not in this case.  Wacky here refers to those folks who would give evolution equal time in a science classroom with whatever blanket they've tossed over god, or who would subject the students to obvious participatory parts of their religions (like public prayers, saying grace).  You know, the ones who think that Obama is a secret muslim, and then think that that's a bad thing.

[iamzack]

If some Christians and Muslims can contain themselves, good on them. But that's not enough of them to protect them the rest of them from criticism.

Fixed.

Yes, that's sorta what I meant. Kinda. Almost. I can't yet put my finger on what's wrong, so maybe it's nothing.

But banning religious indoctrination in a school setting where it doesn't belong = good idea.

Yes, though that article headline makes it seem like private prayer was banned, which would be a bad idea.  That principal does have the wrong idea to be sure, however.

I thought that too. I was about to harp on the illegality of banning private prayer until I read the article

Yes, I am implying that such religions as Christianity and Islam are inherently incompatible with living in a free society.

Surely it would be all right if we kept ourselves out of school and government?

I'm going to assume by "ourselves" you mean the whole proselytizing thing.

If that were the case, I'd not have made the statement. But as it is, the religions themselves are partially to blame. After all, you don't really see Jews trying to convert people.

[TrashMan]

Here where I come from you do have religion in some schools. In a way.

There's a selective subject teaching the basics of christian religion, but that's it. Making it either optional or outside of school is the way to go.
Oh, there are also crosses in various classrooms.

[Locutus of Borg]

The definitive fact is that Government employees cannot teach religious beliefs and practices under the first amendment. (US)

[iamzack]

We had a World Religions class at my old school taught by an evangelist teacher. It resulted in a Christianist guest speaker actively bashing not just Islam, but Muslims themselves which speaking to students. He also handed out pamphlets about how Muslims are all evil and crazy and such. Link.

It's unfortunate how difficult it is to have an actually educational class about the history of religions. Mostly those classes just get taught by Christian fundies who would rather indoctrinate than educate.

[IceFire]

I didn't suggest banning anything. I just said that the doctrines of Christianity and Islam and any other religion that puts a cult-level emphasis on converting others is going to inevitably conflict with other people's rights. And that that makes them incompatible with a society in which those rights are guaranteed.

If some Christians and Muslims can contain themselves, good on them. But that's not enough of them to protect them from criticism.

Hrrmm...not all Christians and Muslims are out to convert everyone.  Actually I'd say its a relative minority.  Then again...whenever I do go to church its the sort of place where the Minister actively invites other local religious leaders from other parts of Christianity, Judaism, Muslims and so forth to speak.  Its really quite interesting.  It sounds like you've had some bad experiences but you should broaden your horizons. Its not all bad...although looking from outside in it does seem like the US is very polarized on the issues of religion.

[Sushi]

Trying to force stuff in public schools is one thing, but what's wrong with a religion actively trying to convert people?

If you honestly believe that you have something good, special, and worth sharing, why wouldn't you try to bring other people in?

Obviously, there are places where that kind of thing is inappropriate (as in the article), and inappropriate ways of doing so. But that's a case of "you're doing it wrong," not "you shouldn't be doing that at all."

[iamzack]

Approaching me as a friend, family member, etc? Understandable.

Approaching me as a stranger in a public place or at my home? **** off.

[Colonol Dekker]

If children don't want to learn. . They generally won't.
 
I didn't check what age group the whole prayer thing applies to, but my old primary school used to have the odd sing-song and even the odd pray around easter and ****.
Just because you have to do something in school doesn't mean you instantly love doing it forever. It was just one of those annoying things we had to do.
 
Kids have brains D'oh.