Author Topic: Need some proffesional opinions (NOT a model p1mp!)  (Read 7190 times)

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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
the term "spin" is a little more ambiguous

a particle with spin 0 looks the same from all directions
a particle with spin 1 looks the same every half-turn
a particle with spin 2 looks the same only once every revolution
a particle with spin 3 only looks the same every two revolutions

or something like that...i cant remember how many spin-states there are. Either way...its about as meaningful as quark "colours" and i can't get my head around either of them because its all so weird.  I dont understand the maths behind it.


:lol: You got it mostly right, but its spin 1, 1/2, 2 and 0. Spin can be up or down. 'spin' is as you said 'as meaningful as quark colors'. Its what's called a 'quantum number', an assignment of a value to an otherwise unmeasurable constant. Color, flavor and spin are all such ephemeral designations.
The important thing about quantum cryptography using photon spin is that it provides for a safe, simple way to distribute the secret keys. The basis of the system is that when you send a photon out with a particular set of values, it will lose some of those values if you RECIEVE it in the wrong way.

Let's designate the states (combinations of quantum values) as left slant (\), right slant (/), flat (-) and tall (|).  I decide to send my stream of photons to you:

/ / \ / / \ \ \ / \ \ \ \ / \ / \ /

The first thing you will notice is that I've sent them all as left or right slant. This is important because of one simple thing: incorrect observation of the photon causes it to devolve into an 'error state'. Passing a 'right' photon through a left reciever leaves the photon in a tall state (/ + \ = |). Sending a left photon through a right reciever leaves it in a flat state (\ + / = -). If anyone who does not know what order of filters to recieve photons in tries to intercept the stream and pass it on (called a man-in-the-middle attack), they will cause some of the photons to devolve into the two error states: - and |. You will know that someone has tampered with the stream. This reveals a problem.

The system is better than that though. The eavesdropper, though he listens in, cannot get the key, because he will devolve, on average, half the photons he intercepts. Meanwhile, I call you on the phone and tell you, or arrange ahead of time, a pattern that tells  you which of the photons will be 'meaningful'. You tell me which ones were tampered with and after a certain length of time, we have an untampered key of reasonable length that the attacker never got to see. This key would then be used to generate a short periodicity one-time-pad. That's about as strong as you can get without keeping the whole thing in your own skull   and jumping off a cliff head first onto rocks, having never shared anything with anyone.


It would not be unstoppable, but it is certainly very difficult for an attacker to have an idea of what the keyspace he needs to attack is. Further, it limits the physical location of an attacker to a line directly between transmitter and reciever
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Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by Unkown Target
Well, it's time for me to defend the beast I have created :D

If radio travels at light speed, then how come it takes about 45 minutes (at about the fastest speed) to get to Mars, to command the old rover they (being NASA) sent up there in the early 90s.
Radio waves also weaken as it gets farther away from it's source. Light doesn't. Also, light is impossible to intercept, becuase to simply look at it means that it's been wiped clean, since you can only recieve light, you cannot stop it (however, there was one experiment that I know of that managed to stop light for about 1/100th of a second).
Oh, BTW, you can look most of this up in one of the more recent Popular Science magazines, because I got my basic idea (I'm not copy-catting, though!) from one of it's articles.

EDIT: I just read the last post again (I thought it said radio lag) and I would like to say that there is no light lag from the sun to mars, because light travels about the entire distance in about 1/100th of a second. Light is very, very fast.

EDIT AGAIN: Also, the combinations of light are nearly infinite, because, along with our visible spectrum, there is also UV rays, Gamma rays, X-Rays, etc. which the machine can be made to pick up.
I Suggest reading up a bit on astronomy and physics.

Radio, visible light, X-Rays, those are all Electomagnetic Energy, and as such travel at roughly 300,000 km/s in a vaccum.  The Earth has an average distance of roughly 499 light seconds from the Sun, or about 150,000,000 kilometers.  Mars is about twice as far from the Sun as the Earth is (give or take) so the time lag from Earth to Mars would be anywhere from about 8 minutes to 25.

Additionally, all forms of EM energy dissipate over distance.  I offer up the inverse-square rule for energy flux in a given area.  If it's a 3-dimensional emitter such as a sphere like the sun, it's an inverse-cubed reduction in flux.  Look it up.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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You're forgetting something mikhael, if the program was made to recognize certain light patters, such as red-red-reddish organge, and read that as, I don't know, Z.
Also, if you think about it, imagine 8 Min. You could almost carry a conversation with that (notice I said almost) with that speed, compared to the hours it takes for radio waves to reach the sun. And by then, you would need complex machines to decipher an already weak signal.
Also, my original designs called for an acceleration of the light particles! I think this is very possible, if it already hasn't been done.
I have my original theory here with me, so I'll be able to write it down, or at least try to translate it from a diagram to words anyways;

Let's say that s is the velocity of light. If M-1 (sender) accelerates the speed of that light to m. If the message was traveling in a straight line to M-2 (reciever) and d (distance) equaled forty-thousand kilometers, then t (time delay) would equal a mere 15 seconds. Now, my operations are probably wrong in this calculation, I admit that, but my (possiblly incorrect) observations also state that, if a radio wave travels the same distance (probably more, in order for the following idea to work), it's strength decereases, thereby lowering message quality and spreads it's waves, making them longer and wider, which, in turn, slows down the transmission, causing it to take a longer period of time to reach it's destination (M-2).


INSERT: Think about it: there are a total of 26 letters in the alphabet, and, adding to that their lowercase counterparts, plus punctuation and numbers, I would say that there are about as many total symbols, letters and numbers in the world as about the amount of keys on your keyboard, plus about 40 (taking into account all the keys that you have to use "shift," to use).

Now, I'm not saying that mikhael and an0n's (I'm picking them to talk directly about because they have been better at giving specific info for the theory in question) points of views are completely without merit. If I did, I would not be the scientist I want to be, and would miss valuable information. In fact, some of his views are more sensible than mine, and, as such, I will try to sum up his opposition to my plan (I'm not going to interject in here, I don't want to be seen as hostile and accusing, because I'm not);

       My (MY) view of  mikhael's points are that his main argument is that this new way of communicating isn't quite fast enough for the proposed type of communication. That's because light travels at c, and yet, so do radio waves. Also, it would only provide a simple, limited form of communication, because of the apparent lack of colors, spectrums, etc.

      My view (again, MINE) of an0n's argument is that the new system is without much of a chance, because it's useless (I CAN'T HELP IT! I'm going to interject here!Gah, here it is: he is totally, unfalteringly right, in every way, except one. And that is that I did not design this system for widespread use on our own planet, I designed it for use aboard the futures starships and expeditions that will, no, must happen in the near future. OK, I'm done) becuase of the fact that radio waves are already traveling that fast.

EDIT:Oh, since this was written before the last post, I must say to Shrike that he is right. I can't argue with it, as I don't have much real experience in the energy field, what I mostly have concerning that stuff is largely theories and conjecture.
         DOUBLE  EDIT: However, light dissapates very little from what I can tell. It's common sense that all E-energy dissapates after awhile, however, if light is accelerated to a sufficient amount, then it can still be decipherable when it is received, plus, if you set up stations along the way, then you will be able to re-accelerate the beam all the way to it's final destination is reached.
Man, I'm tired so some of the above two paragraphs are probably wrong, but I can't think of how to fix them.


See what you think........
Unknown Target
« Last Edit: April 04, 2002, 06:01:58 pm by 368 »

 

Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Radio, visible light, X-Rays, those are all Electomagnetic Energy, and as such travel at roughly 300,000 km/s in a vaccum.
Right, hopefully you read it the second time through. ;)

I'll be blunt.  Please go read up on physics, you seem to have a shaky grasp on the physics of EM radiation.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline KillMeNow

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the number of people who no understanding of physics is alarming in here

light is exactly the same as any other form of electromagnitic radiation is simplly has a different wavelength

and yes the inverse square law does mean that all forms f=of radtion get weaker from there source think of shining a tourch is there was no fall off that tiny hand tourch would shine and light up a wall a mile away it doesn't cause the phons are spreading out not acaully getting weaker - thats why lasers are useful there waveform is completely in phase so the light is all parallel and doesn't spread to it remains instense

someone said that mars is some number of billions of miesl away its not the distance to the sun is only 90 million miles or so mars isn'r further than that at its closest orbital aproach however if tis at its furthers its the distance from teh earth to the sun plus the distance from teh sun to mars hang on i'll see if i can find an old astrophysic text book and see if i can find the acaul distances

distances

(astronomical unit - the distance from the sun to the earth aprox 90 million miles)

mercuary 0.39 AU
venus 0.72 AU
earth 1.0 AU
mars 1.52 AU
jupiter 5.2 AU
saturn 9.45 AU
uranus 19.19 AU
neptune 30.06 AU
pluto 39.53 AU
ARGHHH

 

Offline KillMeNow

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just a note lag time between earth and mars is between 4mins and 20 mins aprox based on lag time of 1 AU being 8 mins
ARGHHH

  

Offline Shrike

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Whoops, was a bit off on Mars' orbital distance.  My bad.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline wEvil

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:eek:

thats heavy going stuff.  Ill have to read it tomorrow when my eyes work.

:eek:

As for Supra-light communications, which seems to be the whole point of this topic..

A)wormholes
B)some weird macroscopic quantum tunelling effect
C)exotic space-warping weirdness
D)wormholes

thats all i can think of off the top of my head.  Im sure theres much more.

 

Offline Corsair

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Gaaaaaaaaaaaah! :mad:
Another topic full of super long posts full of technobabble. I can't understand any of it. Just one question. It would be easy to disrupt, since you have to point the [dr. evil]"laser"[/dr. evil] directly at the place ur sending it to, right? Doesn't this make it a little hard to use, say in combat? It's only good when you're not maneuvering, right?

Heh, how much more simple language can you get? :D
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline KillMeNow

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not really even in bad weather a gyrostabliser laser would be able to track and acuratly aim in tha hurricane it might be in trouble but under most circumstances they are quite useful

espcially for clandestine transmissions since unles you standing in front of it and it hits you and you have a laser message reciver device you wont know any transmission has been sent where as radio messages even if they cant be read the radio emiisions can be detected adn the position of the sender trianglated if the equipemtn is in place
ARGHHH

 

Offline wEvil

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Quote
Originally posted by Corsair
Gaaaaaaaaaaaah! :mad:
Another topic full of super long posts full of technobabble. I can't understand any of it. Just one question. It would be easy to disrupt, since you have to point the [dr. evil]"laser"[/dr. evil] directly at the place ur sending it to, right? Doesn't this make it a little hard to use, say in combat? It's only good when you're not maneuvering, right?

Heh, how much more simple language can you get? :D


Actually a half-decent servomotor mounting and a secondary targeting/alignment laser would do the trick.

 

Offline an0n

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Quote
Originally posted by KillMeNow
just a note lag time between earth and mars is between 4mins and 20 mins aprox based on lag time of 1 AU being 8 mins

Hmmm. 45 mins musta been the round trip time on the rover.
Quote
someone said that mars is some number of billions of miesl

Working on the basis of 45 mins.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline Corsair

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Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
Actually a half-decent servomotor mounting and a secondary targeting/alignment laser would do the trick.

Argggggh! That's what I mean about the technobabble!
*goes off and shoots self* :snipe:
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline an0n

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A swivelly thing and a laser tracking thingy to aim it.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline Corsair

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Much better! :nod::nod: I can understand now! :yes::yes:
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Shrike

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An automatic swivelly thing, to be exact.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Corsair

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:lol:
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Styxx

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
An automatic swivelly thing, to be exact.


[neo] Whoa... [/neo]  :D
Probably away. Contact through email.

 

Offline mikhael

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Speed of Light in vacuum == 'c' == CONSTANT. All things are calibrated against it because it is unchanging within a given medium. Light being slowed down is a media misconception. A MYTH. Stopping light is actually the storage of energy in a rubidium mist to be emitted later as a light pulse. This is not the same light that entered the mist. It is newly emitted light in the same pattern. It is not the same, not even semantically.  In a vacuum, light travels at its fastest. Nothing can go faster and it cannot go slower. It may be, however, diverted, and may lose its baggage along the way. Such is the vagaries of space travel. too... much... hitchhikers' guide...

You might be able to encode letter very efficiently in a pattern of light. However, you can encode letters just as efficiently in a pattern of radio frequencies. Why? Because they are the same thing. EM radiation is EM radiation is EM radiation. You give me three colors of light in a pattern, I'll alter the wavelength of that light and show you the same exact pattern as a radio frequency narrowcast.

You're not getting a higher speed signal with patterned light (same speed). You're not getting more bandwidth from patterned light (same bandwidth). In fact, the only thing you're using a different, and less useful all around, emitter.
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Offline LtNarol

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as someone stated before, the only advantage to using such a method of communication is to make the transmission harder to intercept.  This would be a good thing for transfering dispatch orders, confidencial data, other stuff you dont want the enemy to know about.

This is especially true since radio waves are not so easy to direct (could be wrong about this, but im pretty sure of it) and the most practical way to keep the enemy from knowing what you're saying is to encrypt it and dial down the power on the broadcast so that it wont be recognizable after a small distance.

The problem is this: in combat, the distance measure doesnt work so well as the enemy will be within about the same range as your ships; second, encryptions can be cracked, no matter how sophistacated given enough time.

Therefore this laser communication would be good for vital information that you cant afford to let fall into enemy hands.