[TrashMan]

With armor and structure that regularly survive multi-megaton hits? I don't know.

Forget megatons, the Colossus tanks multi-gigatons of explosive force (meaning the energy transfer is much closer to instantaneous than a collision would be).

Bah. The numbers make as much sense as Star Wars numbers - meaning, not at all. Not ot mention that there are obvious mistakes in descriptions that never got corrected.

I have a buddy who work in shipbuilding. He runs of those stress imulation programs (really neat thing - the model of the ship is put into the program and then one can simulate structural stress due to bad weatehr (waves), runnig shore or even collisions. In his own words - the bigger the ship, the worse it fairs.  It's just how it is.

Before ou say "But it's a game". Drop it. I know it's a game, but that's beside the point. The point is that some things are like they are simply because it's a game and the engine limitations.

Universe fluff, the reality of hte universe , and game reality are two different things. Allways have been (for any game) and allways will be.
The point is that Koth's decision to ram was sensible, since by any logic you'd expect heavy damage on the colossuss.

[NGTM-1R]

Bah. The numbers make as much sense as Star Wars numbers - meaning, not at all.

Universe fluff, the reality of hte universe , and game reality are two different things.

Madness of the first order. You dismiss the fluff with one hand and seek it with the other.

[Mongoose]

Universe fluff, the reality of hte universe , and game reality are two different things. Allways have been (for any game) and allways will be.

I can think of any number of exceptions to this statement right off the top of my head.  For instance, would you state that the gameplay of Half-Life 2 and its episodes presented some sort of "alternate game reality" to what actually happened, when Valve's fundamental game design principles for it are founded on the exact opposite being true?

[TrashMan]

Maddness of the first order. You dismiss the fluff with one hand and seek it with the other.

So if SW fluff sez that a Turbolaser has a power output of 222000 TW, yet in a game it takes 10 hits from it to destroy a 10 meter asteroid (when 1 hit should be enough to vaporize it)...which of two fluff sources is correct?

Get it now? The colli doesn't get heavily damaged because in 90% of cases the Repulse never ramms it anyway. And in the other 10% the type of damage it would recive couldn't be modeled properly anyway.

What some in-game justification?

Orion - 2100m in length (uniformed, boxy)
Aten - 230m in length (uniformed, flat)
Colossuss - 6000m in length (?? stragne volume distribution, think neck)
But we need to look at all 3 dimensions and how they scale.

The Orion is almsot 10 times as long as an Aten( let's say 9), which means it has 9x4x4 the volume (roughly) and mass, judging by the dimensions. That would come to aroun 140 times the mass of an Aten.

Aten ramming a Orion does 30% hull damage to it (roughly)

So, if an Colli is roughly 3 times the Orion's length, then it comes to about 3x3x3 the volume and mass (ideally, but due to it's shape, not quite). So 27 times the mass and volume.

So Orion get's hit by something that only a tiny fraction of it's size, gets moderately damaged.

Colli gets his by something that's roughly  1/3rd of it's size and? Minimal damage? Not bloody likely.

[TrashMan]

I can think of any number of exceptions to this statement right off the top of my head.  For instance, would you state that the gameplay of Half-Life 2 and its episodes presented some sort of "alternate game reality" to what actually happened, when Valve's fundamental game design principles for it are founded on the exact opposite being true?

Actually, there are many examples, especially in FPS games and RPGs.
Mostly due to helth bars. Would the game be fun if you were killed by one bullet or one stab with a sword? In msot cases, no.
So while you (the player) survive things that you normally shouldn't survive, that by itself is never part of the game universe - just part of the game that is taken for granted.

You'll never hear a in-game discussion like this:
"And then I scewerd him with my lightsaber, pulled it out and did an quck slash."
"And?"
"and he lost 30 HP and force healed himself. the bastard. So I threw a lightsaber an it cut trough him several times...but he still has some fight in him."

By the very nature of being a game, some things must be puled of differently. This can often affect the story itself.
A setting in itself exists outside the game.

[Colonol Dekker]

Double post. . . . For shame, your size three by three by three statement strengthens my viewpoint by the way

[Spoon]

Why didn't they used phoenix down on Aerith when sephiroth killed her?

[ChronoReverse]

I have a buddy who work in shipbuilding. He runs of those stress imulation programs (really neat thing - the model of the ship is put into the program and then one can simulate structural stress due to bad weatehr (waves), runnig shore or even collisions. In his own words - the bigger the ship, the worse it fairs.  It's just how it is.

And therefore you're missing the white elephant in the room.

The Colossus exists.  And it is tough.

This means that the designers and builders of the Colossus already took that into account and built the Colossus accordingly such that, even though it's so huge, it is actually tougher than a scaled up object.



And that's not terribly hard to imagine.  Seafaring ships are built to be hollow structures (for what I hope are obvious reasons).  Not only is there no reason a spaceship needs to be that way (besides saving material), we have indication that the Colossus is NOT that way since its incredibly enormous volume doesn't seem completely accounted for in addition to the fact that the Colossus is meant to be eating beams, bombs and collisions with space debris.

This is something that modern ships certainly aren't engineered to do.  You can't say "because we can't engineer it that way the future cannot".  Because we already know the obvious fact that the Colossus is in fact meant to eat heavy damage and therefore they found a way to engineer it.  And if the Colossus is meant to eat heavy damage (something modern ships do not), it makes more sense for it to be able to shrug off collision damage.

[General Battuta]

Whatevs. How much damage was the Repulse kamikaze set to do in FRED?

[TrashMan]

@Chrono - you're saying FS2 ships are designed to withstand ship collisions? That's....retarded. No sane military would go about designing ships based on something that's so unlikely.

You can hadwave and say the Collie is built out of raw ****offium if you want. Basic logic still stands.

[Commander Zane]

With how often they seem to put their ships through dense asteroid fields, I'd say I'd design them with withstanding kinetic impacts in mind.

[Kie99]

Whatevs. How much damage was the Repulse kamikaze set to do in FRED?

Something very small, the Colossus's damage is activated by SEXP.  Anything big enough to damage the Colossus significantly would have wiped out every fighter in the area.

[deathfun]

@Chrono - you're saying FS2 ships are designed to withstand ship collisions? That's....retarded. No sane military would go about designing ships based on something that's so unlikely.

Not likely?

Let us take a trip back to FS1. Ah yes, wasn't there an Orion that was taken down by Vasudans loaded with explosives ramming into it blowing themselves up?

And what about the Aten class cruiser that was too, heading straight for a collision course for another Orion (forgot the mission name)?

If these happened so often in the past, why would they simply say "Oh yes, it's still very unlikely"?
Sane military would design a ship to prevent an occurrence like this from happening again.

[General Battuta]

When Trashman says 'basic logic', he means 'stuff I agree with'.

[ChronoReverse]

@Chrono - you're saying FS2 ships are designed to withstand ship collisions? That's....retarded. No sane military would go about designing ships based on something that's so unlikely.

You can hadwave and say the Collie is built out of raw ****offium if you want. Basic logic still stands.

No, I'm saying the Colossus is built to withstand MORE than what a collision can inflict (because the Repulse has to collapse against the Colossus).

That's not retarded at all if the weaponry is that powerful.  Now we can say the 5GT figure is complete bull**** but it should be acceptable that the juggernaut ships are meant to easily eat nuclear weaponry when beam weapons are even more powerful.  The difference between a gigaton weapon and an ideal collision of the Repulse is over a billion-fold so even a modern multi-megaton weapon outclasses the collision.


"Basic logic" dictates that since the Colossus has to deal with threats of a greater class than collisions and since the Colossus has in fact tanked such greater damage, then the lesser damage a collision represents can be taken by the Colossus.

[NGTM-1R]

When Trashman says 'basic logic', he means 'stuff I agree with'.

I'm not sure it's even that rational, tbh.

[Uchuujinsan]

Mass and energy don't matter that much, it's more important where that energy lands - throw a stone against paper of equivalent mass - does the stone get damaged?
Throw 2 stones against each other - what now?
The Collie doesn't need a hull strong enough to dissipate the energy off the impact, it just has to have a (sginificantly) stronger hull then the orion - if the orions hull collapses first, the energy goes into destroying the orion.
weakest link fails, and the weakest link is the structure of the orion, not the Collie.
(Though I ignored the impulse that the Repulse has here)

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, I was trying to point that out (although not quite so succinctly) in an earlier post.

In addition, the huge sizes of the two superstructures ensure that the full momentum of the Repulse doesn't come into play at once.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Whatevs. How much damage was the Repulse kamikaze set to do in FRED?

140 000 or 160 000, I think. Put ~ + SHIFT + I on the Colossus and Repulse and see the Colly's hull drop percentage.

[TrashMan]

No, I'm saying the Colossus is built to withstand MORE than what a collision can inflict (because the Repulse has to collapse against the Colossus).

That's not retarded at all if the weaponry is that powerful.  Now we can say the 5GT figure is complete bull**** but it should be acceptable that the juggernaut ships are meant to easily eat nuclear weaponry when beam weapons are even more powerful.  The difference between a gigaton weapon and an ideal collision of the Repulse is over a billion-fold so even a modern multi-megaton weapon outclasses the collision.


"Basic logic" dictates that since the Colossus has to deal with threats of a greater class than collisions and since the Colossus has in fact tanked such greater damage, then the lesser damage a collision represents can be taken by the Colossus.

bull***.
 And yeah, ships in fS can withstand X hits because that's the table value. didn't a Orion in FS2 intro get pierced (destroyed) by a SINGLE beam from the Lucifer? IIRC, in-game it takes several hits. So, which of the two is the reality of FS universe?
You seem to forget that  a bomb hit, a beam hit and a collisions are completey different in the way they deliver damage.

Secondly, you cannot simply ignore the basics of warship construction. Yes, that friend of mine works mostly on civilain vessels (he did work on a destroyer once..or was it a mine sweeper? Whatever), but the basic are the same.
Ships are not slabs of metal. Ships are mostly hollow internally...you know - to put stuff in. The armor, the bulkheads, the reinforcing structure - it all scales badly.
so yes, in a collision with the Repulse the whole front of the colossus would crumple. There would be nothing left of the Repulse tough. Cause mass keep going and some armor isn't going to stop that amount of mass.

And funny how you ignore my very own example with the kamikaze attacks. I asked a question you still didn't answer.