[Janos]

**** you. Women make 74 cents for every dollar you make. Women get ****ed over by implicit associations and stereotypes ('strong manly leader' on one hand, '***** harpy' on the other). We're a long way from equality or a level playing field.

You get the cream of the crop, my friend. You aren't treated like dirt; you have every advantage on earth.

Around here, it's 81 cents for one euro, and rising.

[mxlm]

Maybe I should move to a place where we aren't treated like dirt for being men

So. Do you also feel like you're treated like dirt for being a straight, white man (yes, I'm making some assumptions here, but they're informed)? Because if so, well, that feeling? Has to do with you, not the reality of your situation. Persecution complex. Seriously.

[Rian]

**** you. Women make 74 cents for every dollar you make.

Interestingly enough I heard a quite convincing argument once that this had bugger all to do with sexism and was simply due to the fact that men pushed things further when deciding their starting salary and in their annual salary review than women did. If the guy always insists on a 10% raise when the woman settles for 8% it doesn't take long for a man to earn significantly more money even if the person deciding on the salary isn't being sexist.

Why do you think women don’t push for more? It’s not because we’re naturally more conciliatory or any essentialist garbage like that. It’s because the vast majority of us are socialized from birth to be non-threatening and non-confrontational and we get called *****es and harpies when we’re not. It requires a conscious effort to overcome that conditioning, which means women who succeed in male-dominated professions often have to work twice as hard to do so.

Sexism doesn’t have to be direct; and in fact it’s the systemic, internalized variety that causes most of the damage. Looking at isolated cases (whether, for example, a particular boss is sexist or just negotiating wages as usual) rather misses the point, as the causes are more fundamental and deeply ingrained than that. And until we can root out that underlying, systemic bias, the wage gap is going to be there.

[General Battuta]

I have to agree with part of what High Max said. Perpectuation of the stereotype will exist if people are reminded of it. When people start ignoring the differences between them is when true equality will be achieved.

...

Double standards suck.

I don't particularly disagree; it's one reason I'm against the double standard for physical fitness in the military. But if we all simply started pretending everybody was equal right now, sexism would remain powerful.

(The chess example is a case that's probably actually keeping the women in question down.)

[iamzack]

Well they usually have more rights when it comes to child support, even though it takes two to tango, and how this culture views it as ok for a woman to hit a man, but if the places are switched and a man does that, he is seen as bad. In some ways they are treated better than men in this country.

Actually, in many states (like mine) there is automatic joint custody after a divorce unless one parent is proven to be hugely defective. Hugely. Like, they are currently in prison or are severely schizophrenic.

The hitting thing isn't really in my favor, dude. It's like that because women are the "weaker" sex. Culturally, women are supposed to be treated like children. Just watch any show where a male character is teaching an awkward character to interact with women. It's never "women are actually people, so you should interact with her like you would anyone else, and if she doesn't like you well, you didn't want her anyway." Instead it's "compliment her, pretend to listen to her, let her win at games, etc. She is very simple-minded and won't ever do/think anything complex." You wouldn't hit a child, would you? Of course not, not even if it hit you first.

So you know why woman on male spousal abuse is under-reported? because women are the weaker sex, and it is beyond shameful to be beaten by your own child, I mean wife.

[Rian]

I don't particularly disagree; it's one reason I'm against the double standard for physical fitness in the military. But if we all simply started pretending everybody was equal right now, sexism would remain powerful.

In fact people do, and it does. How many times have you heard “post-feminist” or “feminism’s fight is over”? And yet the wage gap persists. Rape and abuse are widespread. Women still don’t have equal representation in government. And so forth.

[iamzack]

Well 'feminist' is a bit of a swear word these days.

[Rian]

I call myself a feminist. Isn’t that what you call someone who fights for women’s rights?

–The Dalai Lama.

[iamzack]

I hear it used like the word 'racist' usually.

"I'm not a feminist, but..."

[Rian]

That’s because of backlash, though. Stereotypically feminists are humorless, unshaven lesbians, so a lot of people don’t want to be identified with that. It’s not because of any ideological issues with the movement, or if it is it’s because of a misunderstanding of what the movement stands for.

There are some legitimate quarrels with the assumptions of manistream feminism. Mostly they come from women of color and trans people, who historically have been largely excluded from the discourse. But that’s an entirely different crowd from the "not a feminist, but..." folks.

[StarSlayer]

I'm curious, granted we don't have a large female population on HLP to question, but do folks find that sexism is predominant in older generations, or is it still prevalent in younger age groups?  To be honest my experience is rather limited to New England insofar as making these types of observations.  The public education system I attended heavily enforced tolerance and acceptance of other races, gender, sexual preference, etc.  This continued into College, especially since the college I attended was a giant mixing pot of people from around the country and plenty from overseas.  I know from experience that their are plenty of women who are far smarter then I am, and I'll wager there are some that could throw me around the mat like a rag doll.  This isn't to say it was a perfect system or completely successful, but my education did its level best to produce a non prejudiced person.  I still cling to a few old traditions like holding open doors and refraining from cussing in their presence, but that isn't really a reflection of my opinion on their competence.  For example I think they could fly combat missions in F-16s as good as any man.

I guess my overall question is whether sexism, at least in a post industrialized nation that has also experienced a feminist movement, is slowly being erased as the generational shift continues, that the existing sexism is a hold over of those raised before feminism, or if its still a continuing phenomenon thats being passed down to the younger generations.  Granted High Max isn't helping my case but it has been my experience that most people my age(early 20s) don't seem to be holding the view that women are inferior and need to be subservient.

[General Battuta]

Explicit sexism is definitely dropping off, at least in some areas.

The problem is that implicit sexism remains; it's transmitted by very subtle cultural forces, but it is extraordinarily powerful.

You know the old riddle where a man and his son get in a car crash? They go in to the doctor, because the boy needs surgery, and the doctor takes one look at the boy and says "I can't operate. This is my son."

People still don't do very well at that riddle - they'll get it, but not as quickly as they should in an ideal gender-blind world. In free association, people still tend to link positive traits to men (strong, assertive) and negative traits to women (dependent, emotional). It's not an explicit kind of sexism; people just say 'well, that's what everybody else thinks, but not me'.

And that's the real struggle these days. The hidden, powerful sexism in all of us. It's easy to conceal it behind rationalization and 'fair play', often without any conscious intent - which is why attitudes like those we sometimes see on HLP are problematic. The idea that women are 'separate but equal' and deserve 'respect and protection' is part of what continues to keep women down.

(Think about terms of endearment and dimunitives for women. "Honey," "chick", "kitten", "sweetie"...it's pretty much all baby animals and food!)

[Liberator]

And that's the real struggle these days. The hidden, powerful sexism in all of us.

So, I'm a sexist cause I hold the door for women coming out of a place behind me or opening the door for them if they are behind me as we go into a place.  Or offer a woman a my chair if there's not another available.

Where I'm from that's called manners.

If I had my preference, women should be protected from occupations where the odd of mortal injury are high, IE combat postings in the military, certain industrial positions, police officers, ect.

Not because they aren't intellectually or emotionally incapable of these jobs, but because typically they are physically incapable of being as proficient at them as they're male counterparts.  I mean seriously, can you see a 5'4" female pulling a 6'4" 300lbs man with another 60lbs of gear out of a burning tank or into cover after he's been incapacitated.  Or how about a beat cop in New York City, first time she walked onto a deserted street, she'd be in threat of rape or worse.

It would be interesting to see statistics on female applicants level vs. actual female employment at the end of the contract cycle.

Intellectually, it's a fine conversation, pointy-heads are always willing to give bonus points for good intentions, but realistically, it's not sexist to be protecting the half of the species who is resposible for bearing the next generation of the species into existence.

[General Battuta]

 

Not because they aren't intellectually or emotionally incapable of these jobs, but because typically they are physically incapable of being as proficient at them as they're male counterparts.  I mean seriously, can you see a 5'4" female pulling a 6'4" 300lbs man with another 60lbs of gear out of a burning tank or into cover after he's been incapacitated.  Or how about a beat cop in New York City, first time she walked onto a deserted street, she'd be in threat of rape or worse.

You tip your hand, my friend. If you weren't sexist, you'd simply say 'someone should be physically qualified for a job like the military or the police force, regardless of gender.' You'd say that the Army as is is sexist because it lets women get off with lower physical standards.

Instead, you say 'women can never be physically fit enough for these jobs'...when your average male is only 40% stronger than your average female, which leaves plenty of overlap.

Don't you agree that by your argument regarding physical ability any woman fit enough to do the job should get it?

Oh, wait. Funny thing! Looks like women do just fine.

Down in flames again, my friend. While you're trying to prop open doors like a nineteenth-century dandy, women are out there doing things you can't do. Welcome to the future.

Where I'm from that's called manners.

If you've got to be sexist to have manners, maybe you need new manners. How about you just hold the door for anybody? Never know if that cute surfer boy might have a crush on you, after all.

[Flipside]

I think the biggest risk of female soldiers, as I think I said in another thread like this, is mixing them with male soldiers, not because they'd be threatened, but because of the inevitable 'Peacock' effect it would have on male soldiers, which might cause them to try and show off, and put themselves at risk.

From a physical point, there's nothing stopping them, but I'd still say there will be certain barriers against an entirely mixed-sex army.

[General Battuta]

Those were the same barriers cited against a mixed-race army and mixed-race schools. Using sexism as an argument against an integrated army is foolish; the problem will take care of itself once men get used to working alongside women.

[Nuclear1]

Anyone who's getting *****y at you for holding the door for them is a wingnut.  They don't represent the main face of the feminist movement.  Being a nice guy shouldn't get you treated like that.  If it has happened to you, then I'm shocked.  Otherwise, it just sounds like a stupid anti-feminist talking point.  

There might be jobs females are physically less capable of then men, but I wouldn't go so far as to think they are incapable.  If you'd seen some of the females going through SERE with me, rucking around 60 lbs a day for 13 hours at least through the mountains, you'd think differently.  Women in combat is an entirely other matter though.  If she can pick up a gun, point it at an insurgent, and shoot, I'd be happy to be alongside them.  Hell, first USAF casualty in Iraq was a female enlisted security forces airman running convoy security, which is damn close to combat these days.

And now for my asshole bit...most women who want to go into dangerous professions have a pretty good understanding of the dangers they face.  The above-mentioned security forces, female Marines (not infantry obviously, but still folks on the ground in Iraq, like the interpreters I went to DLI with), and most other high-risk military positions are good examples.  It's not up to you to decide what's better for them and disallow them from a job based on its risks.  

On the same point, if a female in the military chooses to become a mother, the military gives them the option to either be discharged or continue in their job, their choice.  I know a fair amount of people like that.

EDIT:  Dammit, GB, stop it, I'm trying to post here!  Got stopped twice because of your posts

[High Max]

About Feminism: I've been reading Yahoo answers under terms like "feminism is bad" and there are women, probably from usa, on that topic that are against feminism because like me, they feel that in a marriage, it doesn't work and the woman tends to put herself, her career, and kids before her own husband, which goes against what marriage is all about. the husband gets tired of being treated like he is not important and the wife is being selfish, and he leaves her. It might explain the high divorce rates here in usa. So not all women want to be treated like men, and actually, more than people here might think, many don't want to take the role of leader of household because they look up to their love and husband for taking that role. I'm not talking about the work place and pay and all that, I'm specifically talking about relationships in this circumstance.

It appears that when the average Asian women has a baby and has a job, she quits her job to be in her baby's life. I'm not talking about temporary leave in all cases. But it is also bad for the kid if the mother puts her career first when her husband already has one. Day care is too common in this country.

Also, women can be sexist towards men and that's a two way street, but isn't there proof that men and women have biological and even mental differences as far as using different sides of the brain more often and one tending to be more emotional than the other on average? In countries like this, to combat feminism, they have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism.

[General Battuta]

Sorry. Good to have you, though. The faster we enlighten people like Liberator the faster the world improves.

It was the same thing with segregated schools. The debate about whether it was right was still raging when schools were desegregated. Now, not a century later, we all think it's the most natural thing. It'll be the same way with women in the military.

If she can hack it, she should get the job. As a statistical average, women are less physically capable, but individual woman A can probably outperform men B, C, and D.

It won't be fair until it's gender-blind.

EDIT: High Max, go sit in a corner with your Asian fetish.  If you want submissive women, go find one. There are plenty of misogynistic women.

[Nuclear1]

Funny, my mother's actually the breadwinner in our family.  My father was more of the stay-at-home parent, but he hasn't left her due to any feelings of emasculation or being less important in the marriage.  And it's possible for women to progress in their careers and still have time for their family...plus not all women who want to continue on instantly become distanced from their families and end up having a husband who hates her.

EDIT: Knock it off!  Third time today!