[High Max]

**** you High Max. That's all I can spit out right now.

You're a very bitter person sometimes.

And it isn't an emotionally stable way of talking and acting. That's part of my point. Most foreign women and even foreign men who I have talked to never talk like that to me The average person seems to be more polite and shows more self control in that part of the world, and I have respect for people who are good at staying calm.

eat a bag of dicks, High Max.  There's stability, and there is keeping your calm when you're insulted, but this is the internet, and you don't need to keep it to yourself when someone is poking at you with words and you want to poke back.

I don't feel upset or a desire to poke back is one reason I don't poke back. I also don't take it personally.

@Bat: I'm saying that in this culture, people, including women, are far less emotionally stable compared to the average person in that part of the world. People here in usa tend to yell too much and can't keep their cool and like to use lots of profanity, and I wouldn't want to be in that kind of marriage. Nothing to do with hate. So touchy. Don't misunderstand.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, as a white male, you kind of have that luxury.

[Turambar]

I used to act like High Max's ideal Superman.  It's because I was taking my adderall everyday and it made me feel dead inside.

I like my way better, it's more fun.

[High Max]

I don't take anything Anyways, I should get to doing something else for now, like exercising or fixing some more entries on the Storm Front campaign, etc.

[Ghostavo]

I don't particularly disagree; it's one reason I'm against the double standard for physical fitness in the military. But if we all simply started pretending everybody was equal right now, sexism would remain powerful.

In fact people do, and it does. How many times have you heard “post-feminist” or “feminism’s fight is over”? And yet the wage gap persists. Rape and abuse are widespread. Women still don’t have equal representation in government. And so forth.

Apart from perhaps the wage gap, the other are symptoms of other things. Rape and abuse should not be lumped as feminist subjects since they are not part of discrimination against women. Rape and abuse are wrong by their very nature, not because of any sort discrimination. After all, there is rape and abuse of men as well. As for equal representation in government, that's an artifact of the generation gap. How many young people do you see involved in the government which you find there is not equal representation? Youth apathy is the issue, not discrimination.

Explicit sexism is definitely dropping off, at least in some areas.

The problem is that implicit sexism remains; it's transmitted by very subtle cultural forces, but it is extraordinarily powerful.

You know the old riddle where a man and his son get in a car crash? They go in to the doctor, because the boy needs surgery, and the doctor takes one look at the boy and says "I can't operate. This is my son."

People still don't do very well at that riddle - they'll get it, but not as quickly as they should in an ideal gender-blind world. In free association, people still tend to link positive traits to men (strong, assertive) and negative traits to women (dependent, emotional). It's not an explicit kind of sexism; people just say 'well, that's what everybody else thinks, but not me'.

That's a problem of language (which you may argue is a product of sexism) and ways of changing that will take some decades to accomplish. In many latin based languages, that riddle is not possible (or at least not likely) since most if not all nouns have a gender qualifier attached. You may start learning portuguese for example as a way to avoid this.  

And that's the real struggle these days. The hidden, powerful sexism in all of us. It's easy to conceal it behind rationalization and 'fair play', often without any conscious intent - which is why attitudes like those we sometimes see on HLP are problematic. The idea that women are 'separate but equal' and deserve 'respect and protection' is part of what continues to keep women down.

This I agree with you. People should completely ignore gender in a formal situation. People are just that, people.

(Think about terms of endearment and dimunitives for women. "Honey," "chick", "kitten", "sweetie"...it's pretty much all baby animals and food!)

Not really, since baby talk is used both ways.

[General Battuta]

You are simply scientifically wrong. *shrug*

Apart from perhaps the wage gap, the other are symptoms of other things. Rape and abuse should not be lumped as feminist subjects since they are not part of discrimination against women. Rape and abuse are wrong by their very nature, not because of any sort discrimination. After all, there is rape and abuse of men as well. As for equal representation in government, that's an artifact of the generation gap. How many young people do you see involved in the government which you find there is not equal representation? Youth apathy is the issue, not discrimination.

Oh my god, you're going to get torn to shreds. Rape and abuse are very much feminist, because they are disproportionately directed at women because they are women. You think "Shut up, *****!" and a beating aren't misogynistic? You think men hunting down women and raping them is not because they're women?

Men are indeed raped and abused, but it is far less common and carries far less of a cultural stigma.

You're saying 'equal representation in government is still a problem because people used to be sexist, but now we're not?' Hopefully that's true, but it doesn't address the glass ceiling, the difficulty women have in achieving positions of authority, or the casual and acceptable sexism directed at women in authority.

Let me ask you this. If you have to walk to your car in a parking garage alone at night, how frightened are you? Right. Now imagine you're a woman. It's so very much worse. And that fear can strike walking down a street on broad daylight. If you got heckled by a carful of women, you'd be flattered. When a bunch of men start jeering at an attractive woman, though...

That's a problem of language (which you may argue is a product of sexism) and ways of changing that will take some decades to accomplish. In many latin based languages, that riddle is not possible (or at least not likely) since most if not all nouns have a gender qualifier attached. You may start learning portuguese for example as a way to avoid this.

It has little to do with language and everything to do with the implicit assumption that doctors are male. This is scientifically verified by reaction time association tests.

Not really, since baby talk is used both ways.

Oh, really? You're commonly referred to as a 'chick'? Male sex objects are 'kittens' or 'bunnies'?

Didn't think so.

[Ghostavo]

Could you elaborate?

[General Battuta]

Done.

I will happily throw papers at you all day if you want. Implicit discrimination is very real. I suffer from it; so does everyone else.

Implicit discrimination is that voice in the back of your head that says 'she's such a *****', or that suggests, when a woman screws up, 'maybe it was because she was a woman?'

[iamzack]

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

[General Battuta]

I want to emphasize that men do indeed get raped, and that it is indeed an awful thing. It simply happens far less often, and they are far less likely to be targeted just because they are men.

[Ghostavo]

You are simply scientifically wrong. *shrug*

Apart from perhaps the wage gap, the other are symptoms of other things. Rape and abuse should not be lumped as feminist subjects since they are not part of discrimination against women. Rape and abuse are wrong by their very nature, not because of any sort discrimination. After all, there is rape and abuse of men as well. As for equal representation in government, that's an artifact of the generation gap. How many young people do you see involved in the government which you find there is not equal representation? Youth apathy is the issue, not discrimination.

Oh my god, you're going to get torn to shreds. Rape and abuse are very much feminist, because they are disproportionately directed at women because they are women. You think "Shut up, *****!" and a beating aren't misogynistic? You think men hunting down women and raping them is not because they're women?

Yes and no, it's because of a) their sexual preference, b) power fantasy. Both of which are more general that mere misogyny.

Men are indeed raped and abused, but it is far less common and carries far less of a cultural stigma.

So you are treating it as a less serious offense than rape against women? Because by emphasizing women rape you are elevating one of them in importance. Also, 16% while being less common is not far less common especially when the numbers are probably not really accurate since there is social stigma with men saying they've been raped.

You're saying 'equal representation in government is still a problem because people used to be sexist, but now we're not?' Hopefully that's true, but it doesn't address the glass ceiling, the difficulty women have in achieving positions of authority, or the casual and acceptable sexism directed at women in authority.

That's my take on it, I don't have any studies done on it. The glass ceiling I believe is part of the same problem, which I believe will dissipate as time passes. An instantaneous change is impossible, even in a perfect world. The casual and acceptable sexism directed at women in authority, I don't know where you are, but here sexism is neither casual nor acceptable in work situations, authority or otherwise.

Let me ask you this. If you have to walk to your car in a parking garage alone at night, how frightened are you? Right. Now imagine you're a woman. It's so very much worse. And that fear can strike walking down a street on broad daylight. If you got heckled by a carful of women, you'd be flattered. When a bunch of men start jeering at an attractive woman, though...

Curiously that indicates sexism by you. Why are you treating a carful of women and a bunch of men differently to the same situation? Aren't both doing the same thing for exactly the same reason?

As for walking at night, here it's far more likely to be mugged as a man than as a woman, so I'm not sure what you mean by how frightened I am. Ironically, it's probably because of sexism by part of the muggers.

That's a problem of language (which you may argue is a product of sexism) and ways of changing that will take some decades to accomplish. In many latin based languages, that riddle is not possible (or at least not likely) since most if not all nouns have a gender qualifier attached. You may start learning portuguese for example as a way to avoid this.

It has little to do with language and everything to do with the implicit assumption that doctors are male. This is scientifically verified by reaction time association tests.

That only works in english where doctor is a genderless noun and people associate a gender with it. That's what I meant. I didn't mean to deny that. I'm just saying it will probably pass with time and if you change language that riddle stops being one.  

Not really, since baby talk is used both ways.

Oh, really? You're commonly referred to as a 'chick'? Male sex objects are 'kittens' or 'bunnies'?

Didn't think so.

You've never heard a girl calling her boyfriend honey? Honey-bun? Baby? Cutie? Sweetie? Really?

[Rian]

You ever been called one of those by a total stranger who outweighs you by a hundred pounds and follows you down the street?

[General Battuta]

Is your argument 'we're sexist now, but it'll pass with time'? Or what?

You've never heard a girl calling her boyfriend honey? Honey-bun? Baby? Cutie? Sweetie? Really?

Absolutely. And yet the language is not completely bilateral.

The rest of your points are very good ideas, and things I once believed, but in practice are simply untrue.

So you are treating it as a less serious offense than rape against women? Because by emphasizing women rape you are elevating one of them in importance. Also, 16% while being less common is not far less common especially when the numbers are probably not really accurate since there is social stigma with men saying they've been raped.

When one group is 525% more likely to be raped, by your own statistics, then the group is clearly being selectively targeted. Why do men rape so often, and women don't? It's misogyny. To say that it's because of a power fantasy is to say it's because of misogyny. Misogyny is a power dynamic.

I already made a post about how the rape of men is definitely a problem; it's simply more damaging for women. I assume you read it, so I'm unsure why you brought it up here.

If you think there isn't a huge social stigma against women saying they've been raped, go check out some court cases.

That's my take on it, I don't have any studies done on it. The glass ceiling I believe is part of the same problem, which I believe will dissipate as time passes. An instantaneous change is impossible, even in a perfect world.

Hiring studies suggest that individuals in the 20-30 age bracket still exhibit sexism in hiring. Do you see any evidence that the wage discrepancy is not present in the 20-30 age bracket?

The casual and acceptable sexism directed at women in authority, I don't know where you are, but here sexism is neither casual nor acceptable in work situations, authority or otherwise.

I'm certain it is. It is almost certainly both commonplace and accepted. Moreover, it is almost certainly not something you are aware of as sexism.

Curiously that indicates sexism by you. Why are you treating a carful of women and a bunch of men differently to the same situation? Aren't both doing the same thing for exactly the same reason?

As for walking at night, here it's far more likely to be mugged as a man than as a woman, so I'm not sure what you mean by how frightened I am. Ironically, it's probably because of sexism by part of the muggers.

I'm not a woman, so no, I'm not being sexist - I am reporting the experience of women. All of whom know that a carful of men is a threat in a way that a carful of women is no threat to you.

Step out of the ideal world and enter reality and you'll find gender power dynamics everywhere.

That only works in english where doctor is a genderless noun and people associate a gender with it. That's what I meant. I didn't mean to deny that. I'm just saying it will probably pass with time and if you change language that riddle stops being one.  

And what gender do you imagine the abstract 'doctor' is referred to as in these languages?

The fact is that you are arguing against an enormous and well-documented scientific consensus that sexism persists in tiny, subconscious behavioral changes we all exhibit. These manifest themselves as broad trends.

I am not interested in a point-by-point philosophical discussion when we can easily answer these questions empirically. We know the rates at which women are raped compared to men. We have implicit association tests, hiring studies, and EAST results. We have demographics broken down by age cohort. We can see sexism in the math.

[Ghostavo]

@Rian
Have you?

People doing dickish things should not be lumped with discrimination against women or discrimination against men. That will only perpectuate the stereotype that women need to be protected because otherwise they will suffer.

People doing dickish things should be punished BECAUSE they are doing dickish things by itself. Either man, woman, or whatever the victim is should not make any difference. Doing otherwise IS sexist.


I apologize if I address things that may have been addressed, but this thread seems to grow fast and posts are also edited for added information and corrections.

@General Battuta

Curiously that indicates sexism by you. Why are you treating a carful of women and a bunch of men differently to the same situation? Aren't both doing the same thing for exactly the same reason?

As for walking at night, here it's far more likely to be mugged as a man than as a woman, so I'm not sure what you mean by how frightened I am. Ironically, it's probably because of sexism by part of the muggers.

I'm not a woman, so no, I'm not being sexist - I am reporting the experience of women. All of whom know that a carful of men is a threat in a way that a carful of women is no threat to you.

Step out of the ideal world and enter reality and you'll find gender power dynamics everywhere.

I never said you were a woman.

Also, gender equality means reasoning the exact same things for men and women in the same situation. By saying a carful of men is a threat to a woman but the opposite is not, you are clearly attributing negative qualities to the carful of men.

If (using your example) I attribute that a woman leader is not good because she's a woman, you label me a sexist (which I would agree with the label in that case), but doing the oposite, which is what you are doing, means exactly the same thing. It's sexist for asserting it.

And what gender do you imagine the abstract 'doctor' is referred to as in these languages?

There is no abstract I'm aware of. But if you must know, medicine is a female noun.

[General Battuta]

Is your argument that a woman should be just as afraid of a huge man following her as a man should be of a huge woman following her?

Because that exhibits a degree of inexperience that is somewhat startling.

"People doing dickish things" should be lumped with discrimination against women when the likelihood if it happening to a woman and the things she has to fear from it are so staggeringly greater.

Your argument boils down to the absurd assertion that women must live in fear simply because they are taught to.

[zookeeper]

Right.

The funny thing about our world is, you can have people read an article about old people, and when they get up from the chair they will walk measurably more slowly.

Talking about how women need protection and coddling is in itself dangerous.

You should stay calm in the face of reasonably and rationally presented ideas. But High Max's sneering assertion that she was 'unstable' (unlike Asian women) was practically weaponized hate - inflaming a memetic virus that we're all infected with. Because everyone who reads a sentence like that will find his or her behavior subtly altered.

We have this crappy heuristic bug called 'mere repetition'. If you hear an opinion enough times, you will eventually believe it. It doesn't matter if you reject it each time you hear it; it worms its way in.

That's why misogynistic speech has to be shut down wherever possible.

You're saying that in the following exchange, it's High Max who spouts dangerous memetic viruses, and not iamzack?

About Feminism: I've been reading Yahoo answers under terms like "feminism is bad" and there are women, probably from usa, on that topic that are against feminism because like me, they feel that in a marriage, it doesn't work and the woman tends to put herself, her career, and kids before her own husband, which goes against what marriage is all about. the husband gets tired of being treated like he is not important and the wife is being selfish, and he leaves her. It might explain the high divorce rates here in usa. So not all women want to be treated like men, and actually, more than people here might think, many don't want to take the role of leader of household because they look up to their love and husband for taking that role.

But it is also bad for the kid if the mother puts her career first when her husband already has one.

Submissive isn't the point. It is being loved and putting husband and kids before career and possessions and the man should be the same way to his wife.

Submissive isn't the point. It is being loved and putting husband and kids before career and possessions and the man should be the same way to his wife.

**** you High Max. That's all I can spit out right now.

And it isn't an emotionally stable way of talking and acting. That's part of my point. Most foreign women and even foreign men who I have talked to never talk like that to me The average person seems to be more polite and shows more self control in that part of the world, and I have respect for people who are good at staying calm.

Yeah, he's probably pretty misogynistic, but at least he was being civil whereas she was acting like a 5-year old. Heck no it's not a reasonable reaction, it's simply stupid and childish. Saying that it's reasonable and acceptable should be, by your logic, spreading a meme that it's ok (for women?) to act stupid and childish. Condoning direct insults or other ape**** insane behaviour no matter the context sends a far more harmful message than allowing someone to express their personal distasteful opinions in a civil manner. It basically boils down to "we don't need to follow the rules because we're right".

[General Battuta]

iamzack was perfectly within her rights to say '**** you' in response to misogyny. Why engage with a racist or misogynist on his or her own terms? It's like arguing with a conspiracy nut. You're not going to change their mind.

I am happy to argue with fundamentally decent people like Ghostavo, but High Max has a history, and if you were one of the groups targeted by his history and behavior, I think you would empathize with this degree of anger.

Frankly, as far as I know, a healthy '**** you!' is one of the great forms of protest in American culture. There's not much childish about it.

[Ghostavo]

Is your argument that a woman should be just as afraid of a huge man following her as a man should be of a huge woman following her?

Because that exhibits a degree of inexperience that is somewhat startling.

Yes, I'm saying that. And I'd like for you to elaborate on what exactly it exhibits. Amuse me.

"People doing dickish things" should be lumped with discrimination against women when the likelihood if it happening to a woman and the things she has to fear from it are so staggeringly greater.

Your argument boils down to the absurd assertion that women must live in fear simply because they are taught to.

No, if you must know my argument is that while there was discrimination in the past, in the present most discrimination happens because there is a problem adjusting the feminist movement to the changing climate. There is still discrimination, sure. You even called it something, implicit sexism. But how do you destroy implicit sexism? By changing the way people think about genders. So to achieve true equality you have to treat both exactly the same way. By starting to react to something that happens to both genders and saying it's a form of sexism, which is rooted not in sexism but in other factors, but which the occurring rates might indicate sexism, is perpectuating the thought pattern that led to sexism in the first place. Differentiating genders.

So my argument doesn't boil down to the assertion you described, it boils down to "Crimes should be punished not because a gender was discriminated against, but because they are crimes." what remains following that CAN be argued to be true sexism.

[StarSlayer]

But I will put her first as well. I won't even want to hug or look too much at other women if I had a love.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogynistic.

I'm tremendously devoted and affectionate to my cat (or I was, back before it died.)

That does not make it an equal relationship. At all.

Don't feel too bad Batutta; cats do that to a lot of people. 

[General Battuta]

I feel like you're missing the point we're making, here, because I couldn't agree more that a similar crime should be prosecuted equally in both genders. But I don't understand why you possibly think I should disagree. The law should be gender-blind.

Actually, strangely, I can provide experimental evidence to refute one assertion:

But how do you destroy implicit sexism? By changing the way people think about genders. So to achieve true equality you have to treat both exactly the same way.

Banaji et al. at Harvard found, in a rigorous series of studies, that the only way to remove implicit prejudice was to present positive exemplars of the minority group (strong women) and to present negative exemplars of the majority group (men.) It's ugly. But simply presenting strong women does not work.

Acting as if feminism is over is empirically the wrong strategy.

By starting to react to something that happens to both genders and saying it's a form of sexism, which is rooted not in sexism but in other factors, but which the occurring rates might indicate sexism, is perpectuating the thought pattern that led to sexism in the first place. Differentiating genders.

Let's buckle down and face it, mate.

One in six women will be raped in their lifetime. One in three in the military. 99% of all rapes are conducted by men.

Men are rapists. Women are, generally, not.

How is this not sexist? Your argument almost makes sense to me, but the factors that you claim account for rape are part of misogyny and sexism. They're fundamental components. The fact that most rapists are men and that most rapists rape women is evidence that something is very wrong.

This is clearly not a 'thought pattern'. The fact is that women are systematically targeted (91% of victims) by a specific type of crime. They are targeted because they are easy victims and because the rape of women is seen as appropriate.

So my argument doesn't boil down to the assertion you described, it boils down to "Crimes should be punished not because a gender was discriminated against, but because they are crimes." what remains following that CAN be argued to be true sexism.

I completely agree with that.

Yes, I'm saying that. And I'd like for you to elaborate on what exactly it exhibits. Amuse me.

I think I'll disappoint, because I have no problem with you. I think what you believe is that someone here believes women should have special treatment under the law. The law should be gender-blind.

However, I hope you can agree that steps have to be taken to correct the systematic biases present against women in economics, politics, criminal behavior and prosecution, day-to-day life (walking on the street), common discourse, and humor.

Your assertion that these biases are no longer present is, unfortunately, untrue. If it were, then measurable implicit prejudices would be different in the current young-persons cohort, the wage difference have started smoothing out, and rape rates would be way down. Young women would not be afraid of young men on the street.

These events have yet to occur. Women still have to be careful of many more things than men.