Author Topic: Lucifers shields  (Read 43260 times)

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Offline Commander Zane

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Nope. :lol:

 
Snail.
The beam argument depends on bad peoples opinions of shields being penetrated by beams as a game mechanic  :rolleyes:
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Offline Snail

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Snail.
The beam argument depends on bad peoples opinions of shields being penetrated by beams as a game mechanic  :rolleyes:
Oh hadn't thought about that.


Now I feel dumb. :(

 

Offline General Battuta

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If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at

so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension

Precisely. But it still requires (or can transport) only a specific ammount of energy/matter per second.

Well, we don't actually have any evidence for that.

 

Offline Qent

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I choose to interpret it as being impervious to whatever amount of ordnance the GTA and PVN could actually throw at it. I think that makes the most sense.

I do not believe that beams would pierce it completely. More like increasing bleed-through until the shields are totally depleted.

 

Offline General Battuta

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I think it's a case of "whatever works for your campaign", really.

 

Offline Snail

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I think it's a case of "whatever works for your campaign", really.
Yup.


To each his own.

 

Offline TrashMan

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If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at

so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension

Precisely. But it still requires (or can transport) only a specific ammount of energy/matter per second.

Well, we don't actually have any evidence for that.

How about common sense? Opening and mantaining a subspace portal costs energy. The bigger the ship, the more energy. Why would it suddenly work different for the shield?

It's the very basics of common sense - there is no such thing as completley invulnerable.
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Offline Snail

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FSRefBible says that the reason shields don't work in subspace is for energy reasons.

 

Offline General Battuta

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If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at

so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension

Precisely. But it still requires (or can transport) only a specific ammount of energy/matter per second.

Well, we don't actually have any evidence for that.

How about common sense? Opening and mantaining a subspace portal costs energy. The bigger the ship, the more energy. Why would it suddenly work different for the shield?

It's the very basics of common sense - there is no such thing as completley invulnerable.

And, yet your 'very basics of common sense' missed something obvious: your original claim was that the energy requirements were proportional to the amount of matter/energy being transported per second.

And we have no evidence that that's true. Holding a subspace portal of a given size open might be a flat-rate operation. The Lucifer's shield could require a flat 'upkeep cost' but work independent of whatever's tossed through it.

For all we know, once you make a hole, you pay to keep the hole open, but you don't have to pay a toll on everything that gets tossed through.

And, funnily, that argument is just as common sense!

(I don't particularly support this interpretation, but if a campaign wanted to use it, it's just as well-founded as anybody else's idea. Also, hilariously, you could probably make something 'completely invulnerable' in real life by wrapping a domain wall around it, if such topological defects exist. Of course, the consequences for the protected party might be...odd.)

 
FSRefBible says that the reason shields don't work in subspace is for energy reasons.
I always thought it had something to do with field instablility due to bieng inside a subspace tunnel... like subspace energy resonance destablilizing the sheild waves etc

maneuverable ? pfffft. Look at the Basilisk or Aeshma (i think thats how its spelt) . I dont know what class of fighters they are (Heavy assault), but they fly like a retarded seagull.

 

Offline TrashMan

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If opening subspace portal and keeping them open is so cheap and easy - why aren't subspace portal always kept open?

The Knossoss opens up only when a ships is going trough. The shivan subspace opening aren't kept open for other ships to pass trough. Each ships creates it's own that closes immediately.

And you still miss the point. What if you throw MORE mass/energy per second than the portal shield is capable of transporting? EVERYTHING in the universe has a limit.
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Offline General Battuta

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If opening subspace portal and keeping them open is so cheap and easy - why aren't subspace portal always kept open?

The Knossoss opens up only when a ships is going trough. The shivan subspace opening aren't kept open for other ships to pass trough. Each ships creates it's own that closes immediately.

Perhaps because opening the portal is tremendously energy-expensive: thus why the Lucifer carries around five vulnerable reactors to keep its shield up at all times. (Ironically, multiple ships DID pass through subspace openings in the original game design.) But that doesn't tie the cost of opening and holding the portal open to the mass of anything passing through.

None of that is evidence against a flat-rate cost for holding a subspace aperture open based solely on duration rather than transit mass. I don't personally believe that theory, but there's no way to disconfirm it.

Quote
And you still miss the point. What if you throw MORE mass/energy per second than the portal shield is capable of transporting? EVERYTHING in the universe has a limit.

A domain wall doesn't care how much baryonic matter you throw at it; it will happily convert it all into radiation. A singularity will eat a constant stream of whatever and just grow bigger (mass and energy are conserved); a wormhole would simply throw it all somewhere else.

The Lucifer's shield could (I say could, not 'is'!) be 'truly invincible' as long as it's up because it simply requires a flat rate to stay on: everything that hits it goes somewhere else, but that process is not energy intensive any more than it's energy-intensive to throw stuff through an empty hole. The hole itself pays no price for the mass transit.

I'm not a big fan of this theory, but there is nothing in either physics or FSverse to suggest that Lucifer's shield can't be genuinely invincible so long as it simply eats stuff and throws it out in subspace.

Personally, I think that'd be silly, but if a campaign wanted to argue that, there is nothing to prevent it.


 

Offline Snail

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Never is it said that the reactors power the shield.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Quite right. Nor is it mentioned that they don't.

The whole point is that it's all up for interpretation and nobody's definitively in the right.

 

Offline Topgun

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Pffft. Bow+arrow is underrated. Against personnel, they're deadly.
Gun > crossbow + blot > bow + arrow

 

Offline Dragon

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I think that FS2 beam cannons would have pierced Lucifer's shields.
Afterall, Colossus had beams as it's main armament and was made for dealing with shivan enemies, including Lucifer, so it it's logical that it would be armed with something that able to at least damage, if not pierce it's shields. Also, both AAA and anti-ship beams can pierce fighter shields, so it's likely that they can do the same thing to Lucifer's shielding. I think that it's shield were just a powerfull variant of fighter shields, just too strong for weaponry of this time to make any readable damage to them. It would most likely be possible to detect some effect of conventional GTA weapons on Lucifer's shield, but it would require bringing a Faustus near it, which would be simply suicidal considering how heavily Shivans defended Lucifer.

 

Offline Commander Zane

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The problem with that opinion was that the Colossus was designed with "engaging ships like the Lucifer" in mind, it was never proven in-game so all that can really be done is say "Well it was made to do it, but we don't know if it actually works."

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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You missing another obvious answer - tehy didn't bring enough guns.

If the PVN didn't bring enough guns to Vasuda Prime, then I don't think it matters if you can overwhelm the shield with massed fire or pierce it with a sufficently powerful single attack; such a thing is beyond the capablities of our protagonists. They don't have enough guns, and probably never could.
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Offline Mongoose

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The problem with that opinion was that the Colossus was designed with "engaging ships like the Lucifer" in mind, it was never proven in-game so all that can really be done is say "Well it was made to do it, but we don't know if it actually works."
That is a good point, but putting the "Command is stupid" sentiment aside, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here.  If they put 20 years and lord knows how much money into the Colossus project, you can bet they were damn sure that it would work when it was finished. :p