[TrashMan]

So you're assuming a Sathanas blowing up in subspace would have no effect?

Anyway 640 lucifers >>> 80 Sathanases. Lucifers proved quite capable of  eradicating life from planets and killing other ships. And with 640 of them, you can cover a far larger area.

EDIT:
there is NO hint that shivans grow their ships. EVERYTHING we seen suggest that the ships are built like any other ships. Of course, do the shivans build them or somone else builds them for them is another matter completely, but really irrelevant.

[NGTM-1R]

As odd as it is, I'm going to have to agree with Trashman. While lack of proof is not proof of lack, if Shivan craft showed any sign of being grown, I think we would have heard about it by now.

And the kind of integration a biological system can produce and the resulting extremely fine tolerances would be consistant with the GTA's crippled faux Dragon from Playing Judas, but it would not at all be consistant with being able to refit and improve on the Mara successfully.

[TrashMan]

The shivan Azrael transport in the hallfight - metallic.
Shivan fighters - metallic.

[NGTM-1R]

Doesn't necessarily prove anything in and of itself.

[TrashMan]

Made out of metal, uses electronics and other systems that are compatable, blows up like regular ships.
If the ships were organic, someone, somehwere would have mentioned it in canon.

In this case we have EVERY reason to belive shivans ships are normal and NO reason to belive they are organic.

[General Battuta]

But a ship doesn't have to be organic to be grown.

[terran_emperor]

Yeah. It can be made of crystal.

I once had a theory about the shivans having organic Tech. But ive since abandoned that for crystal tech instead, which macks more sense based on the look of the ships.

I still maintain my belief that Shivan ships Grow ie a cain will become a Lilith, then (after an unseen stopgap ship) a Demon, and finally into a Lucifer...Dont ask for details, i havent worked them out yet.

But on the subjuct of the Lucy's shields i once posted a theory about them...I'll see if i can find it

[General Battuta]

Or it could be built of holographic self-replicating elements (not holographic in the sense of Star Trek holodeck; look it up.)

[deathfun]

The question is also raised

Why would Shivans build ships in the shape that they are?

Take the Sath for example. It looks like a big flying brick with for sharp edges on the front
Same goes for Cain/Lilith

That would be a question I would like to know about. Why those designs? What purpose do they serve?

Could those ships even fly in an environment atmosphere? (being ALL shivan ships)

[NGTM-1R]

Atmospheric flight is not a concern the Shivans appear to have at all. The same may be said of every other race's capital craft, however.

The Shivans appear to design for an intimidating aesthetic.

[Aardwolf]

THE MOST INTERESTING OBSERVATION SO FAR:

Problem with [...] Lucifers is that you force your enemy to attack in subspace, and if the attack's successful, they're sealed off from you.

[Kie99]

So you're assuming a Sathanas blowing up in subspace would have no effect?

Nope, but if you send a Sathanas at your enemy, there's very little reason they'd choose to engage it in subspace.  If you send a Lucifer they've no choice but to do exactly that.

Anyway 640 lucifers >>> 80 Sathanases. Lucifers proved quite capable of  eradicating life from planets and killing other ships. And with 640 of them, you can cover a far larger area.

I'd say the damage 8 Lucifers deal wouldn't be any greater than one Sathanas.  I'd say the production cost of one Lucifer would be far more than 1/8th of a sathanas anyway.

EDIT:
there is NO hint that shivans grow their ships. EVERYTHING we seen suggest that the ships are built like any other ships. Of course, do the shivans build them or somone else builds them for them is another matter completely, but really irrelevant.

Exactly, it would have been mentioned in the Tech Room, given that Shivan ships have been captured and analysed.

[Liberator]

Well, let's see here.

I think they would work on the Luci's shields, but to a far lesser degree than on say a Sath or a Cain.

The beams most likely do they're work by focusing an enormous amount of energy at a single point and overwhelming the armor's thermal integrity to the point where after a few hits it simply liquidates and allows the beam through to the more delicate internals.

Now shields work by taking a focused burst of energy, from a Prometheus or ML-16 or whatever and distributing it to the areas not directly impacted.  We've seen this because if you take a few too many hits in your aft shields the other 3 sections are also weakened.  The weakening is directly related to the amount of power available in the other quadrants of the shields, so as has been said before the fact that the Luci has at least one dedicated reactor powering her shields, it's a safe bet that even the Collie's beams would have done damage, but not on the scale that we're familiar with vs. other ships.

[General Battuta]

But beams pierce shields.

[Liberator]

Only because the only shields we've ever seen them used against are fighter/bomber shields.  It's not a stretch to suggests that a beam focuses enough energy to punch through a fighter shield, hell a good hit with a kayser will do the same thing.

[Scotty]

We've been over this before.

Fact:  the GTVA build the Colossus to defeat any other Lucifers.
Fact:  the Lucifer has shields.
Fact:  in order for the Colossus to defeat a Lucifer, it must pierce the shields.
Fact:  Beams pierce shields on a smaller scale.
Fact:  The Colossus has beams.
Therefore:  The Colossus could pierce the shields of the Lucifer with beam fire.

[Droid803]

Well, its a very good conjecture that the Colossus could pierce the shields of the Lucifer, but it isn't a fact.
I like that idea myself, mind you. Just that people will complain.

I don't get what's still being argued here...

Oh ok, never mind:

No, the GTVA would not be forced to engage the Lucifer(s) in subspace as the Colossus is designed to hunt them in...well Realspace.
They would have to resort to destroying them in subspace if the Colossus didn't work, but that's beside the point, really.

[Scotty]

The Colossus can pierce the shields of a Lucifer the same way shivans build their ships.  All canon evidence points that direction, it's just never explicitly stated.

[General Battuta]

Okay, look, the idea of Shivan ships developing by von Neumann process or from holographic components is just as likely as them being built.

[Kie99]

We've been over this before.

Fact Conjecture :  the GTVA build the Colossus to defeat any other Lucifers.
Fact:  the Lucifer has shields.
Fact Untrue:  in order for the Colossus to defeat a Lucifer, it must pierce the shields.
Fact:  Beams pierce shields on a smaller scale.
Fact:  The Colossus has beams.
Therefore:  The Colossus could pierce the shields of the Lucifer with beam fire.

Fixed, hope this helps.

Okay, look, the idea of Shivan ships developing by von Neumann process or from holographic components is just as likely as them being built.

No it isn't.  Shivan ships being built is more likely because we know that ships can be built, we don't know it's possible for von Neumann machines or holographic components to create ships.