[terran_emperor]

-Begin rant-
Okay if you are going to devolve this into a match about probability then i have to remind you of this.

And please dont start it up again, lest i quote EVERY bit of Douglas Adams' Text, and possibly Eoin Colfer's as well, about improbable things happening at you.

-end rant-

Abyss, whom is a new member to this forum, has posted a very interesting and original theory on the shivans. Don't scare him away by posting improbability arguments. In fact i think all these probability arguements should be split off into another thread

[Kie99]

Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.

And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.

Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night.  It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.

Well a nuclear bomb is different then subspace.

It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally.  You might as well just say 'God did it'.

Same with anything creating intelligent life, really.

It's not...natural selection and evolution are much more likely than life simply rising up out of some mysterious fragments of subspace because they follow logic and happen over a much longer time period.  Just because a theory is not impossible doesn't mean it is a good one.

Well what if subspace happens to be alive, as in an organic substance, in that case it is possible that with exposure to certain factors (For example: QPs) that they could mutate into something else, like the Shivans, or their ships if they are also organic.

I'm aware that nukes are different to subspace, that's called an analogy.

Nothing we've seen suggests that Subspace is alive, it's a fairly massive leap to say it is.  Again - 'What if God did it for kicks?' is an equally valid theory.

Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.

And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.

Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night.  It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.

Do you realize what you said is practically identical to a creationist argument?

Yes, but in this context it is sound.  Natural selection consists of mind boggling numbers of hypothetical nukes going off across the planet, and indeed the universe, and only a very very small proportion of them creating something useful ie. life.  Nowhere do the random events create extremely complex life-forms like Shivans or their vessels.

-Begin rant-
Okay if you are going to devolve this into a match about probability then i have to remind you of this.

And please dont start it up again, lest i quote EVERY bit of Douglas Adams' Text, and possibly Eoin Colfer's as well, about improbable things happening at you.

-end rant-

Abyss, whom is a new member to this forum, has posted a very interesting and original theory on the shivans. Don't scare him away by posting improbability arguments. In fact i think all these probability arguements should be split off into another thread

Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.

If one posts a theory one can't expect that everyone is just going to start applauding it and saying how brilliant it is, it devalues the appreciation to genuinely logical arguments like The Shivan Manifesto, and look how much criticism that one's received.

[Abyss]

Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.

Last I checked, so to was FreeSpace.

[Pelegrin]

Very nice theory, indeed.
Although, myself likes more the idea of the Shivans be an inteligent species that has evolve like any other living organism.
When you have species that have mutate, adapt and evolve and now have the abilities that Shivans have show us in the game that makes indeed an invisible foe.
Remember they are very inteligent they have their own fleet of spaceships and can travel huge distances in space very fast.
Their tactics have no meaning to us but they are very certain of the results they get, Earth, Vasuda Prime, Vega and Capela.

[Snail]

Yes, but in this context it is sound.  Natural selection consists of mind boggling numbers of hypothetical nukes going off across the planet, and indeed the universe, and only a very very small proportion of them creating something useful ie. life.  Nowhere do the random events create extremely complex life-forms like Shivans or their vessels.

Given that we still don't fully understand the dynamics of life, I don't think you can say that with such certainty. It may be that life on Earth evolved in a similar way (through lightning striking simple molecules), and while intelligent life couldn't evolve in the same way, we know even less about subspace - It's not really a stretch of the imagination to believe that the Shivans were really "born from the flux of subspace" (quoth Bosch). The Ancients used subspace for quite a long while before the Shivans attacked - Perhaps it wasn't 'instantaneous evolution' as much as accelerated time in subspace.


(And BTW, the Shivan Manifesto made very little sense. Sure it answered the questions, but the answers it gave were terrible and contrived.)

Very nice theory, indeed.
Although, myself likes more the idea of the Shivans be an inteligent species that has evolve like any other living organism.

Bosch did say (or rather, said that the Ancients believed) that the Shivans were 'born from the flux of subspace'.


The Fragment theory is really great sure there are a few faults, but it is one of the few theories that has actually convinced me to some extent.

[NGTM-1R]

This is a horrible theory, as it offers no possible explanation for why the Shivans are not therefore a race divided. The GTA and GTVA has good evidence that Shivans serve a crewing function aboard their ships and fighters, they are not passengers or parasites of some sort, yet this theory posist the implausible that both are the products of simulatanous evolution...which opens up a can of worms who state that the ships are therefore the sentient and dominant form of Shivan life, because they are the ones with the greatest ability to alter their environment. (This is frequent problem with Shivans-as-single-massive-organism theories, as they cause Shivan pilots to be irrevelant, but the Shivan pilots exist and do so in large numbers, and are clearly seperate entities dominant over their ships, so they are not irrevelant.)

I also feel constrained to note as Black Wolf once did that everyone ascribes magical mystical powers to quantum pulses when that's a very fancy way of describing most electromagnetic radiation. There is no reason to believe it could do anything that reeks so heavily of magic.

[Abyss]

This is a horrible theory, as it offers no possible explanation for why the Shivans are not therefore a race divided. The GTA and GTVA has good evidence that Shivans serve a crewing function aboard their ships and fighters

Did I ever once state that the Shivans didn't pilot their fighters, I simply state that their fighters are created in the same way that they are.

I also feel constrained to note as Black Wolf once did that everyone ascribes magical mystical powers to quantum pulses when that's a very fancy way of describing most electromagnetic radiation. There is no reason to believe it could do anything that reeks so heavily of magic.

However that is also not what I said in my there, I say that the fragments change depending on the frequency of the QPs, in other words, the fragments responds to the QPs by changing, it is not the QPs that change the fragments.

[NGTM-1R]

Did I ever once state that the Shivans didn't pilot their fighters, I simply state that their fighters are created in the same way that they are.

It doesn't matter that you stated they didn't pilot their fighters. That's the logical conclusion to be draw from what you represent, and you didn't take it (which is just as well, it's clearly wrong). However by not taking the logical extension, you proposed something even more wrong. You're proposing they evolved in parallel to accomodate each other in a way that is completely without natural precedent. No form of life evolves to be commandeered at a whim by another.

However that is also not what I said in my there, I say that the fragments change depending on the frequency of the QPs, in other words, the fragments responds to the QPs by changing, it is not the QPs that change the fragments.

But that is equally unfulfilling, as the Shivans use these for communication and have been confirmed to do so, and also it implies with a big enough radio they could be defeated by making them all into useless stuff. These are the damned Shivans. It's not going to be that easy.

[General Battuta]

I like many of the fundamental aspects of the theory. I think you could get an interesting campaign from it, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise!

[Abyss]

Did I ever once state that the Shivans didn't pilot their fighters, I simply state that their fighters are created in the same way that they are.

It doesn't matter that you stated they didn't pilot their fighters. That's the logical conclusion to be draw from what you represent, and you didn't take it (which is just as well, it's clearly wrong). However by not taking the logical extension, you proposed something even more wrong. You're proposing they evolved in parallel to accomodate each other in a way that is completely without natural precedent. No form of life evolves to be commandeered at a whim by another.

However they could have a more symbiotic relations ship, the Shivans act as a processor for the ship, interpreting the situation and providing the best course of action, while the ship provides a livable environment for the Shivan "pilot".

However that is also not what I said in my there, I say that the fragments change depending on the frequency of the QPs, in other words, the fragments responds to the QPs by changing, it is not the QPs that change the fragments.

But that is equally unfulfilling, as the Shivans use these for communication and have been confirmed to do so, and also it implies with a big enough radio they could be defeated by making them all into useless stuff. These are the damned Shivans. It's not going to be that easy.

First, just because they use them for communication, doesn't mean they only use it for communication. Since they were created from fragments in my theory, and since in my theory, the fragments emit QPs naturally, it is only logical that they would have an affinity for them.

Also, not once did I say that a fragments form can be changed once it is created. Actually its the opposite, once a fragment has a form it cannot be changed.

I like many of the fundamental aspects of the theory. I think you could get an interesting campaign from it, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise!

Thank you, I just might do that. Though first I'll have to finish the campaign that I am currently working on.

[Kie99]

Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.

Last I checked, so to was FreeSpace.

Are you trying to analyse it as though it is a real universe, or creating a theory you think is really cool and interesting?  If it's the latter then you've obviously succeeded with some people, if it's the former then I'd suggest in the future you improve this theory by using things like evidence or facts from the game.

Yes, but in this context it is sound.  Natural selection consists of mind boggling numbers of hypothetical nukes going off across the planet, and indeed the universe, and only a very very small proportion of them creating something useful ie. life.  Nowhere do the random events create extremely complex life-forms like Shivans or their vessels.

Given that we still don't fully understand the dynamics of life, I don't think you can say that with such certainty. It may be that life on Earth evolved in a similar way (through lightning striking simple molecules), and while intelligent life couldn't evolve in the same way, we know even less about subspace - It's not really a stretch of the imagination to believe that the Shivans were really "born from the flux of subspace" (quoth Bosch). The Ancients used subspace for quite a long while before the Shivans attacked - Perhaps it wasn't 'instantaneous evolution' as much as accelerated time in subspace.


(And BTW, the Shivan Manifesto made very little sense. Sure it answered the questions, but the answers it gave were terrible and contrived.)

You think it is anywhere near realistic that using subspace would form completely random 'fragments' which turn out to be life-forms capable of destroying the civilisation which created them within a period of time less than on the order of millions of years?  What evidence is there that time is accelerated in subspace? 

Do you think the answers to the questions posed here are any less terrible or contrived?

[General Battuta]

Honestly, people, he's well within his rights to postulate whatever he likes regarding subspace and the rules thereof.

There's plenty of room for creative freedom within the FSverse.

[Abyss]

Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.

Last I checked, so to was FreeSpace.

Are you trying to analyse it as though it is a real universe, or creating a theory you think is really cool and interesting?  If it's the latter then you've obviously succeeded with some people, if it's the former then I'd suggest in the future you improve this theory by using things like evidence or facts from the game.

Neither, I'm just sharing what I think, and if you want to point out probability (this is either going to be good or bad for me since I don't know some of this, but I'll do my best to make this work), then please tell me what the probability is of there being other sentient life in this galaxy that we have no knowledge of, and despite the GTVA's constant expansion into many systems, not one encounter with the Shivans, or even the existence of 2 or more sentient species in the same galaxy. In any event, the base of my theory maybe improbable, and I will accept it, however, to me that is irrelevant unless you can prove that it is impossible.

[Rodo]

wow, that's a crazy theory! some things seem a little off , but I kinda like it ^^

[jkalltheway]

But... NGTM-1R, maybe you're not thinking out of the box enough. Imagine Subspace itself as a living organism. If the Knossos Portal acts the way Abyss says it does, and it rips a piece off the organism then it has to defend itself. Although the theory is a little shaky, its fun to think about. Subspace organisms work in mysterious ways...

[NGTM-1R]

Yes, but then we just get the "why aren't they self-contained" thing again.

[Abyss]

Yes, but then we just get the "why aren't they self-contained" thing again.

Can you elaborate on this a bit?

[General Battuta]

Human beings consist of internal organisms that operate symbiotically like the crew of a ship. And we emerged from freak energetic accidents, too! I don't see anybody decrying us as impossible.

[Lucika]

wow, that's a crazy theory! some things seem a little off , but I kinda like it ^^

I like it too, but paradoxically, I hope that it isn't true. It is a nicely crafted theory from our perspective but , the practical Gods of their universe, surely had come up with a more, shall I say, materialistic theory?
I mean, we don't know virtually anything and we are holding upon every possible idea, bumping in the dark room of Shivan theories.
For , I really hope that they aren't that cheap to use such an abstract explanation for all that happened (or, worse, an explanation like that)

[NGTM-1R]

Basically, you're saying that the ships and the Shivans are all from subspace.

But you're not saying that they evolved together. You're saying they evolve seperately. However they're clearly dependant on each other in a way that makes seperate evolution impossible. We ought to get random ships and Shivans floating around seperate from each other this way, but we don't, and if we ought to get ships and Shivans seperate from each other, then they should be more equal in terms of intelligence, but they're not.