[General Battuta]

I don't think the idea is to think what thought (which likely wasn't much), it's to generate ideas that could be used.

[Abyss]

Basically, you're saying that the ships and the Shivans are all from subspace.

But you're not saying that they evolved together. You're saying they evolve seperately. However they're clearly dependant on each other in a way that makes seperate evolution impossible. We ought to get random ships and Shivans floating around seperate from each other this way, but we don't, and if we ought to get ships and Shivans seperate from each other, then they should be more equal in terms of intelligence, but they're not.

lol, unfortunately, I know too little about the subject of evolution to defend myself at this time.

[Kie99]

Honestly, people, he's well within his rights to postulate whatever he likes regarding subspace and the rules thereof.

There's plenty of room for creative freedom within the FSverse.

Indeed, and equally we're well within our rights to criticise his theory, point out it's flaws, particularly when he's asked for comments on it.

Neither, I'm just sharing what I think, and if you want to point out probability (this is either going to be good or bad for me since I don't know some of this, but I'll do my best to make this work), then please tell me what the probability is of there being other sentient life in this galaxy that we have no knowledge of, and despite the GTVA's constant expansion into many systems, not one encounter with the Shivans, or even the existence of 2 or more sentient species in the same galaxy. In any event, the base of my theory maybe improbable, and I will accept it, however, to me that is irrelevant unless you can prove that it is impossible.

OK I can't prove that it's impossible, there is almost nothing one can prove to be impossible, I'm just trying to show you where the flaws in your theory are - eg. lack of evidence.

[General Battuta]

Honestly, people, he's well within his rights to postulate whatever he likes regarding subspace and the rules thereof.

There's plenty of room for creative freedom within the FSverse.

Indeed, and equally we're well within our rights to criticise his theory, point out it's flaws, particularly when he's asked for comments on it.

Agreed, but many of the flaws seem to be based on a particular framing of the FSverse (subspace doesn't do this! Shivans don't act like that!) that, while parsimonious, is not exclusive.

And there is such a thing as constructive criticism, mind.

[TrashMan]

For any phenomena in space to just create shivans + their ships is.... idiotic.
You might as well say that Buttercap Slytherin Shalazar the $th, God pony of giant midgets ate some bad chili and crapped them out. Frankly, your theory ventures into surreal and mind**** territory.

Let's list some facts, shall we?

#banana:
Subspace is basicly another dimension (or a sub-layer of hte universe). There's nothing magical about it.

##:
G-orez ni devlove ,cinagro ylraelc era snavihS

#Toaster:
Their ships are not organic, but metalic. They are built, not grown.

[General Battuta]

Evolved or created, we don't know.

And subspace is highly energetic, which is sort of weird. Some kind of heat bath effect...?

[jkalltheway]

For any phenomena in space to just create shivans + their ships is.... idiotic.
You might as well say that Buttercap Slytherin Shalazar the $th, God pony of giant midgets ate some bad chili and crapped them out. Frankly, your theory ventures into surreal and mind**** territory.

First off, let me just say thats a good theory. Secondly, ...i love surreal and mind**** territory :[

[Droid803]

And I personally like a theory that makes sense.
Like Snail's Theory.

This one's certainly interesting but...a little strange.
Fragments of a dimension becoming....ships and Shivans, and gaining intelligence is, frankly, surreal.

I mean, isn't subspace just some blue swirly thing?

[TrashMan]

The idea that they are native to subspace isn't strange. What is strange is the idea that they just popped out with their ships.

Human evolution lasted for millions of years.
All we see from subspace is a blue, swirling vortex.

Now, if you assume there's enough matter ni subspace, somewhere - then it's not too much of a stretch to assume that some form of life evolved in subspace. It grew, it developed and it started living near large clumps of matter. They continue evolving and start altering themselves, start creating artificial habitats (like space stations or more probably ships. They could be nomadic.) And they don't like subspace travel since someone crosses their turf.

Now personally I'm not terribly fond of this theory either (I believe it's more likely the shivans were created by someone else...someones war machine that got out of control.) But at least this theory is more plausible than "subspace got mad and it crapped out shivans and their ships".

[General Battuta]

That's also fair, yeah.

[terran_emperor]

Well J.M. Straczynski of Babylon 5 fame came up with an interesting theory which he used as the core religious beliefs of the minbari: That the Universe is sentient and that all life and so on it the universe making itself manifest so it can figure itself out...

Personally, i think that makes more sense than some of the stuff that organized religions continually spout.

I should also note that JMS is a self-confessed atheist (no offense to any of the [Name your God/dess] squads on the forum).

And i think this theory raises another question: What if subspace itself is sentient and the Shivans are like antibodies?

[Droid803]

Well, yes, I'm not against them being native to subspace, but ships and fully-formed organisms being, well basically spontaneously generated is arcane.

I mean, instead of "Subspace got mad and crapped up Shivans and Ships", its just "Subspace suddenly crapped out Shivans and Ships". If they developed in subspace, fine. If subspace developed them actively over time as antibodies, etc., fine. But I'm against them basically just suddenly appearing.

[QuantumDelta]

Alternate universe sure this could work but I would have trouble buying into this one for a current-FSverse explanation for the shivans.

For several reasons, along with those already being debated, secondarily;
We did nothing to trigger the first Shivan invasion.
Neither specie had anything like the kind of tech to influence subspace in that fashion, not GTI nor PVN Intel were even close.
It's also hinted that the GTI knew quite explicitly (in the original ST, not just ST:R) that the Shivans were around and incoming.

It is an original(well, ish) and decent idea (I do like it) for sci-fi in general but it wont work in the direct FS Universe established as Canon in my eyes, even as Fanon, it's a bit too much of a stretch, at least without some serious fleshing out.

But yea, in an alternate universe you could make both specie more advanced in terms of subspace management and then explain away the reason between the difference in FS1 and FS2 Shivan behaviour (since your campaign explains their origins it's going to have a better understanding of them).

But the likelihood of a immediate formation of a complex organism with such diversity but a singular language and single type of 'cell' inside (which is just about the only way you'll be able to explain it away (the ships being alive/The Shivans) without going from sci-fi to biblical fiction as mentioned before, though the thread serves as a useful reminder to how easy it is to make religious **** up) is lolworthy.
As for the infinite improbability drive, being a comedy, it was created by a finite improbability drive by a student because he realised that if they had decided that if the infinite improbability drive was a virtual impossibility it had to be a finite improbability it's a pisstake that Adam's wrote about on **** like this ;p

[TrashMan]

I wonder...if subspace (basicly a 5th dimension) is alive....does that mean that the X-coordinate in the universe is also alive? Or that time is alive?
This raises so many interesting questions...

[terran_emperor]

True. But answering them would require a new definition of what life is...

I mean by the current criteria for something to be alive, Fire can technically be classified as a form of Life