Author Topic: Living through the TV War  (Read 6632 times)

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Offline Kosh

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Re: Living through the TV War
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but I don't really believe in it
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Yeah, I'd view the idea of Vasudans having intersystem fighter drives before their use at the end of the campaign as being extremely far-fetched.

How is it far fetched? We saw it many many times in FS1, so often that I doubt it was an oversight.

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I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation

Actually that is an extremely far fetched idea, much more far fetched than their having intersystem jumpdrives. Why can't anyone accept the evidence in FS1? We never once saw a GTA fighter make ANY intersystem jumps, full stop, under any circumstances. Why else did the GTA ask the PVN (an organization they had just been at war with for more than a decade) to send fighters to escort the three shield prototypes (which were extremely valuable) if they could use "synched" subspace vibrations to do it themselves? Also, even though it has been a while since I played FS1 but didn't the PVN fighters (the ones that show up and blow the HoL fighter's cover) first enter the scene by coming in through the node?

EDIT: And I'll also add that they asked the Vasudans for help in transporting the shield prototypes through the node even though PVN units were defecting left and right to the HoL, making it a risky request since after all, how could the GTA know the fighters the PVN sent were actually the real deal?

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that the mission designer at  forgot that they weren't supposed to be jumping in like that.

Given that we see them do it 4 or 5 times I dont see how it is an accident. :P

EDIT2: And during Exodus at one pointed didn't some damaged Vasudan fighters jump in from Vasuda all by themselves after a wing of freighters came in, not escorting anything? You know, the guys who warn you about the ancient prophecies being true and that Shivan cruisers are coming.....
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:47:53 am by Kosh »
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Living through the TV War
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I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation
Yeah, that is much more far-fetched than inter-system jump drives.

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How is it far fetched? We saw it many many times in FS1, so often that I doubt it was an oversight.
Do we really see that elsewhere than in Exodus ? Because I'm starting to be unsure, and I can't remember any other occasions. If it was only in Exodus, the hypothesis of oversight is defensible, but otherwise I think I'm gonna think like you do :p

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Why else did the GTA ask the PVN (an organization they had just been at war with for more than a decade) to send fighters to escort the three shield prototypes (which were extremely valuable) if they could use "synched" subspace vibrations to do it themselves?
They didn't. Vasudans fighters were supposed to await them at the other side of the node, the ones that tried to "relieve"us before the node where HOL.


EDIT : About Cardinal Spear, well it doesn't contradict canon as far as I know, but it isn't canon either, neither is the TVWP, so we shouldn't consider them in this thread, only canonical sources I think.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:54:01 am by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Living through the TV War
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Do we really see that elsewhere than in Exodus

Yeah, that mission I referred to the PVN fighters entered the node along with the Terran freighters, that is confirmed. I THINK, but I don't recall for sure during "Where Eagles Dare" towards the end a bunch of Anubis fighters jump in, but I don't remember if they are coming in through the node. There really aren't that many situations where we could possibly see it, so the number of missions would be limited.

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They didn't. Vasudans fighters were supposed to await them at the other side of the node,

I'm pretty sure they were supposed to await the Terran convoy when they reached the node and then escort them during the trip through subspace, not anytime before or after, which they did.

So that brings it up to 4 confirmed times that we saw it (3 in Exodus 1 during the shield convoy protection thingy) and 2 possible. And like I said, it also explains how they were able to go so far behind Terran lines and show up in places like Ross 128.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Living through the TV War
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I THINK, but I don't recall for sure during "Where Eagles Dare" towards the end a bunch of Anubis fighters jump in, but I don't remember if they are coming in through the node.
Ok you got me, I'm pretty sure they came from the node. So based on canon, I agree it is possible that Vasudans fighters had inter-system jump drives before the Terran did. Then I could argue that all the way from Vasudan-controlled system to Ross 128 is a pretty long way to do in the tiny cockpit of an Anubis for the tall Vasudans, but anyway...
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Living through the TV War
How is it far fetched? We saw it many many times in FS1, so often that I doubt it was an oversight.

Simple: The Terrans would have them too. There are no great technological hurdles to overcome in doing this. The Interceptor is a known fusion of Terran and Vasudan hardware. The Vasudans resorted to Terran primaries to fight the Shivans with. Systems integration is apparently not only possible, but relatively easy. Given the advantage being able to deploy fighters intersystem represents, there is every reason to believe if Vasudan fighters had the ability then it would have been the GTA's top priority to capture some and a successful reverse-engineering would have followed shortly.

So at best, the Vasudans had just developed the technology themselves as The Great War opened and exchanged it for Terran weaponry. The only missions that uneqivocally have an intersystem jump must be an arrival; any exit is suspect, as the player can make intrasystem jumps from inside a node area too. (Technically, arrivals are suspect too, because at least a couple FS1 missions have the player arrive very close to a node.)
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Online Mongoose

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Re: Living through the TV War
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I think one can explain away the Vasudan ships apparently using intersystem nodes in a mission like Exodus by using some handwavium and stating that their vibrations were somehow "synced" with the freighters they were escorting...or, to use the far more likely out-of-universe explanation
Yeah, that is much more far-fetched than inter-system jump drives.
Okay, then feel free to ignore it; it's just a personal bit of handwavium off the top of my head for my own satisfaction.   Let's consider what we actually do know, then.  Kosh says we see Vasudan fighters make intersystem jumps "many times" in FS1, but I don't know of any concrete evidence to suggest that any of those occasions, except maybe one in Exodus, represents anything more than an intrasystem jump in the vicinity of the node.  That's especially true when the fighters in question are Anubis-class...how would a fighter that's essentially a cheap mass-production model, one that doesn't even have an afterburner, possibly possess technology as sophisticated as that?

But I do agree that what we see in-game is the best source of evidence.  My sole justification for denying the existence of intersystem fighter drives before the end of the campaign, and I think the only justification that one really needs, is the fact that the command briefing that introduces them treats them as a huge deal, as something that's never been possible before.  Allow me to quote straight from the relevant briefing, from the mission "Reaching the Zenith":

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This mission will be facilitated by the new subspace drive we have received.  For years the GTA has tried to give a fighter the ability to do intersystem jumps.  After monitoring the Beta Aquilae engagements, the GTA science colony at Sol has finally been able to solve the puzzle.  All GTA fighters are currently being equipped with intersystem subspace drives.

According to that, the GTA has been working on this for years, with no success before this point.  Does that sound like something they would have needed to do if the Vasudans had already developed such an ability?  As NGTM-1R said, they would have simply captured an enemy fighter and reverse-engineered the technology.  And from the Vasudans' perspective, why wouldn't they have shared this technology with the Terrans earlier in the course of the war, particularly right after Vasuda Prime was destroyed?  They certainly had nothing to lose, and possibly much to gain, by doing so.  On top of all of that, note that "monitoring the Beta Aquilae engagements," i.e. watching what the Shivans were doing, was what finally gave the scientists in Sol the last piece of the puzzle.  If it was as simple as watching Vasudan fighters do the same thing, those scientists would have been set years ago.

When you sit down and read that command briefing, I don't see how anything else makes sense.  What appear to be "intersystem fighter jumps" by Vasudan ships in the campaign are either intrasystem jumps or FREDder error.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 08:05:34 pm by Mongoose »

  

Offline Eishtmo

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Re: Living through the TV War
One other thing- would it be too much of a stretch to consider Cardinal Spear as shedding some light on the war?

Yes, it would be.  I respect it for being the first to cover the time period, but I didn't think it was very good and a lot of what it did was limited by the tools available in FS1.

I think when it comes to the apparent use of intersystem drives by fighters, it might come about more as a problem with fighters ENTERING subspace, rather than LEAVING it.  That might explain the fighters (destroyer/carrier dropped them off inside subspace).  Maybe.  Possibly.

I honestly think that it was a design mistake made before the final story (and the lack of the drives for the fighters) was completed.  I also think that many of the designers thought that cruisers had fighterbays (at least one wanted one on a Cain for a mission).  This might explain the extreme lack of carriers and how Vasudan fighters get around so easily.

I do have one last thought on why the war was such a stalemate for so long:  It wasn't really much of a war for the bulk of it.  And by bulk, I mean the first 10 - 12 years.

Ever play Civilization II?  You'd be out exploring, come across some random civilization that would promptly declare war on you even though they were half a world away?  You'd never see a single unit of theirs for hundreds of turns, and battles, if they happend at all, woudl be if your units just HAPPENED to come across each other.

I think this is how most of the 14 Year War was fought.  Sure, they declared war early, but the actual FIGHTING almost never took place, not just for the early part, for MOST of it.  It was only in the last few years that we see any serious fighting at all.  This would explain odd names (Aldebaran Encounter, Vega Engagement), and also why the Vasudans held off the Terrans for so long:  They just plain never fought them.  There were battles, of course, rare, but they happened, and they were good sized, but never big enough to consititute the kind of war we see in FS1 and FS2.  Once they were over, it could be months before the two sides ran into each other again.

Except on the ground, where they probably still had the heaviest fighting of the war.  The space war, however, was a yawn.  It was probably more like the navel war of World War I, which really didn't do much of anything outside of ONE big battle.  Then nothing ever again.

All this would explain some oddities we see.  Vasudans in Betelguese and Ross 128 because they had colonies there that the GTA didn't find right away, Terrans colonizing Regulus, and the NTF making Sirius one of the core systems.  Also remember that the GTA had only been in interstellar space for about 7 years before the 14 Year War started, which is a pitifully short amount of time to expand through this small corner of the galaxy.  Add on another 10 years, though, that's more than enough time to build sizable colonies outside of Sol, ones big enough to withstand losing Sol at the end of FS1.

The war didn't actually get hot and interesting until the Vasudans deployed the Typhon, and they probably only did it after they were sure they could take on an Orion.  And even building the Typhon was probably not something they needed to rush to build, so it would explain the absence of a PVN destroyer and why the GTA just simply roll over the Vasudans:  Neither side knew where the other was, and neither was really looking either.

Still makes for a damn boring war/campaign.  I still prefer my original stuff for that.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Living through the TV War
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The Terrans would have them too


Why?

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There are no great technological hurdles to overcome in doing this

I also disagree. The Interceptor missile is a Vasudan engine with a Terran warhead strapped on top of it, and generally a very simple device. Subspace engines are more complicated, because even if they could reverse engineer it they still had to design a new component to be compatible with existing engines using whatever materials the Terrans had. Reverse engineering does not happen overnight.

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As NGTM-1R said, they would have simply captured an enemy fighter and reverse-engineered the technology.

Depending on how different it is, that could actually take years. Even then that assumes they were able to capture a drive intact. We should also keep in mind that Terrans in FS1 did not really understand how subspace works at all, which probably explains their difficulty in reverse engineering it.

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Kosh says we see Vasudan fighters make intersystem jumps "many times" in FS1, but I don't know of any concrete evidence to suggest that any of those occasions, except maybe one in Exodus

There were 3 in Exodus, and 2 in the shield convoy mission. That's 5 times confirmed. I consider that to be "many". :P

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If it was as simple as watching Vasudan fighters do the same thing, those scientists would have been set years ago.

Because it wasn't just that simple. They has been watching Vasudan fighters for years, which probably allowed them to get as far as they did. They couldn't really watch the Vasudans do it anymore because the PVN was devastated.

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The only missions that uneqivocally have an intersystem jump must be an arrival

Good point, but Exodus has them coming in and out.


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Online Mongoose

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Re: Living through the TV War
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Kosh says we see Vasudan fighters make intersystem jumps "many times" in FS1, but I don't know of any concrete evidence to suggest that any of those occasions, except maybe one in Exodus
There were 3 in Exodus, and 2 in the shield convoy mission. That's 5 times confirmed. I consider that to be "many".
Real swell of you to cut off the second half of that sentence, which is where I make the entire point I was stating.  Oh, and you still haven't addressed the majority of my post that presents the strongest evidence against your position.

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As NGTM-1R said, they would have simply captured an enemy fighter and reverse-engineered the technology.

Depending on how different it is, that could actually take years. Even then that assumes they were able to capture a drive intact. We should also keep in mind that Terrans in FS1 did not really understand how subspace works at all, which probably explains their difficulty in reverse engineering it.

Do you really think it would take years to reverse-engineer something that's essentially the same piece of technology Terrans have been using for a few decades, just miniaturized?  They're not re-inventing the wheel here.  And how do the Terrans "not really understand" how subspace works when the intelligence entry on it describes it in detail?  Again, they've been making intersystem jumps for a few decades, and intrasystem jumps for significantly longer.  They know what they're doing.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Living through the TV War
The T-V War has been ongoing for 14 years and the tech room notes at least one case of blatant technological theft (the Scarab), and you spend several of your early missions stopping another. FS2 makes it clear that the technological hurdles are small. GTVA ships used standardized weapons, of which at least one is cooked up within the timeframe of the game. Terran spies amongst the Vasudans are mentioned outright in a mission briefing. Burning them so easily means they're obviously commonplace. There is absolutely no reason to believe subspace drives have something special or unique about them that would defy analysis.

This is also the  bunch that was able to reverse-engineer a Dragon (even in a very crappy state) within the space of a few missions, and Shivan shields (when totally unfamilar with Shivan technology!) within in a similar timeframe, for both groups. Saying they can't handle a technology of familar form and function for years when they've just gone and developed working shields from totally unfamilar Shivan technology in about two weeks is bullcrap.
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Re: Living through the TV War
The GTA had been working on shields before the Shivans arrived though.  The description for the MX-50 states that it was useless when tested against deflector arrays at Ross 128, and this was at the start of the campaign.
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[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
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Online Mongoose

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Re: Living through the TV War
The GTA had been working on shields before the Shivans arrived though.  The description for the MX-50 states that it was useless when tested against deflector arrays at Ross 128, and this was at the start of the campaign.
We have no real evidence that "deflector array" refers to something that could ever be slapped on a fighter, though; that phrase isn't exactly descriptive.  I feel safe in saying that Shivan shield systems were something completely different.  Remember the lab cutscene?

 
Re: Living through the TV War
Not really.  Its been a while since I played the FSPort.  I do remember the scientists being amazed that the shield held.

And here's some rampant speculation.  Its entirely possible that the GTA deflector arrays were designed as protection against missiles, bombs, or asteroids, and not energy weapons.  The Vasudans had bombs during the T-V War, and its possible the GTA wanted something that could protect their destroyers against Vasudan bomber strikes.  As to them not being mounted in FS1, they were prototypes, and may have been buggy, energy-intensive, or taken up a great deal of space, possibly requiring an all-new class of destroyer, which the GTA didn't have time to design before the Shivans came.  If the T-V War had lasted longer, the GTA might have had a shielded destroyer, although it probably would have been extremely light on offensive firepower and would most likely be relegated to a carrier/command role.  And as to FS2, beams got developed, and it wouldn't be worth it to carry a massive destroyer-sized shield generator when beams fired by a lowly cruiser would just go right through the shields.
//end speculation

No, a Terran deflector array may not have been able to be slapped on a fighter, but the tech description does indicate that the Terrans did have some experience with energy screens.  How much of it is applicable to fighter shields, I'm not sure.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Living through the TV War
That would explain how fast they managed to adapt Shivans' shields.

Quote
possibly requiring an all-new class of destroyer, which the GTA didn't have time to design before the Shivans came.
Why do I think Hades here ? :D
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MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
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Online Mongoose

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Re: Living through the TV War
No, a Terran deflector array may not have been able to be slapped on a fighter, but the tech description does indicate that the Terrans did have some experience with energy screens.  How much of it is applicable to fighter shields, I'm not sure.
Remember, though, you're basing any assumptions on that experience on only two words in a single weapon's tech description.  The theme of Shivan fighter shields as being something completely new and different is carried across several missions, a command briefing or two, and even a cutscene.  There's far more evidence to suggest that this was something the GTA hadn't seen before than to insinuate that they had.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Living through the TV War
I have a suspicion that the Ross 128 deflector array was some form of captured Shivan equipment, part of an experiment being carried out by the GTI. We know the Shivans are very protective of their technology, which might have been why Riviera was attacked with such force.

 
Re: Living through the TV War
Like I said, Terran experience may have been with destroyer-sized energy screens, and said screens may have been based purely on absorbing kinetic impacts such as missiles, bombs, and asteroids.  So Terran knowledge may have been about massive destroyer-sized shields that are completely useless against laser and plasma weapons, and Shivan knowledge is about tiny fighter-sized shields that render lasers and plasma weapons nearly impotent.  Considering the differing areas of knowledge, Shivan shields may have been a completely new technology, because the Terrans were focusing on large arrays designed to counter bombs, not small ones designed to counter lasers.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Living through the TV War
Makes it a slight coincidence that at around the same time Ross 128 came under attack by the Shivans...


Most technologies were developed in Sol, why would the deflector array research be sited way off in Ross 128?

 
Re: Living through the TV War
You could be right about the GTA deflector screens being captured Shivan shields.  Or you could have the research so far away in order to minimize the risk of espionage by the Vasudans.  I will say that your explanation is much more likely though.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
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  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
Re: Living through the TV War
Remember, though, you're basing any assumptions on that experience on only two words in a single weapon's tech description. 

That's more than we have in a lot of cases.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.